Elaborating on Aronian-Carlsen

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

dear chess friends, I would like to elaborate a bit on the very interesting Aronian-Carlsen game from Stavanger.

for a start, I would like to post some statistics on 3 vital positions from the game:

[d]r1br2k1/3n1ppp/ppp1pn2/2Pp4/3P4/qPN1PN2/2BB1PPP/3Q1RK1 w - - 0 7
b6, the Carlsen line: 20 games with Komodo and SF, 5 black wins, 15 draws

[d]r1br2k1/1pbnqppp/p1p1pn2/2Pp4/3P4/PPN1PN2/2BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 6

position after a3 Bd6 c5 Bc7:
20 games with Komodo and SF, 8 white wins, 12 draws

[d]r1br2k1/3nqppp/ppp1pn2/2Pp4/1b1P4/1PN1PN2/P1BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 5

c5 b6: 20 games with Komodo and SF, 16 white wins, 4 draws

[d]r2r1nk1/1p2qppp/p1p2n2/2Pp4/3P2b1/PPB1PP2/2BN3P/R2QR1K1 b - - 0 10

position after c5 e5 a3 Bc3 Bc3 e4 Nd2 Nf8 Re1 Bg4 f3 ef3 gf3:
20 games with Komodo and SF, 3 black wins, 17 draws

[d]r1br1nk1/1p2qppp/p1p2n2/2Pp4/3Pp3/PPB1P3/2BN1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 8

position after above variation without Re1 and early f3:
20 games with Komodo and SF, 7 black wins, 13 draws

in what way could you interpret this stats?

[Guenther]

dear chess friends, I would like to elaborate a bit on the very interesting Aronian-Carlsen game from Stavanger.

for a start, I would like to post some statistics on 3 vital positions from the game:

...snip...

in what way could you interpret this stats?

Your statistics are as good as your weak logical skills.
All your nonsense is based on stupid 1 second moves on a weak computer
with a fixed opinion on the behalf of chess positions despite not much chess insight.

Opening a new useless thread on what is already done and gone after the
old story was locked is pure trolling and should lead to consequences.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

moderation already deleted 3 threads of mine!

what for?

all I wanted to do was thank Louis for the support.

also, they locked the thread, when only 3 hours from the poll had expired, while the poll should run a day or 2.

why do not they also lock the other, longer thread?

it is treating the same subject, does not it?

or, one can post, only when one is proven wrong, but not when others are proven wrong?

this is my first original post for the whole 2017, I have not been posting own threads for quite a while, and the first topic I post, is not tolerated.

why so?

why I have been able to tolerate unimaginable posts from different users for all that time, some posting new topics almost every day, and not very interesting, I would say, but you can not stand even a single post of mine?

I do not invite quarrels, I invite creative discussion.

the tone of the original message was perfectly correct, it is you who start a fight.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

thanks to moderation for not deleting the thread.

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p2n2/2Ppp3/Nb1P4/1P2PN2/P1BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 10

with this position, after c5 e5 Ne4, I get messy stuff:
3 white wins, 2 black wins, and 15 draws

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p2n2/2Ppp3/1b1P4/1PN1PN1P/P1BB1PP1/R2Q1RK1 b - - 0 10

with this one, arising after c5 e5 h3, I get

2 white wins and 18 draws, so far best performing for white after e5, but still pretty much drawish according to stats.

for the Carlsen line, b6, as said, I have only black wins and draws.

so, if I had to judge by this quick and dirty, was that the right expression, stats, in the probably best line after c5, c5 e5 h3, white gets minimal plus score.

in the a3 line after a3 Ba3 Ra3 Qa3 c5 b6, it is black who gets 5 wins and 15 draws, so some advantage, but mostly draw.

anyone getting many/any white wins after Carlsen line?

please do not be impatient with me, I just want to objectively clear my view on the very interesting position.

my conclusion so far: both a3 and c5 lead to a draw by best play.

I do not know in what way we judge which one is better.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p2n2/2Ppp3/1b1P4/1PN1P3/P1BB1PPP/R2QNRK1 b - - 0 10

one more interesting position after c5 e5 Ne1, leading to all 20 draws.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

checking other reasonable moves for white.

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p2n2/3p4/1b1P4/1PN1PN2/P1BB1PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 12

after cd5 ed5, 20 games Komodo and SF

3 white wins, 17 draws

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p1pn2/3p4/1bPP4/1PN1PN2/P1BB1PPP/R2QR1K1 b - - 0 11

after Re1

3 white wins, 17 draws

[d]r1br2k1/1p1nqppp/p1p1pn2/3p4/1bPP4/1PN1PN2/P1BBQPPP/R4RK1 b - - 0 11

after Qe2, this is not very reasonable, but wanted to check what happens

2 white wins, 4 black wins, 14 draws

SF scored all draws on all 3 positions, Komodo was to blame for all the mess.

so, if this is anything to go by, according to quick shootouts, Aronian possibly played just the 4th-best move.

of course, this is all very much for fun, I still wonder how the Carlsen line performs with you.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

concerning the sac analysis, anything better than that:

[pgn][Event "Blitz 1m"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2017.06.20"]
[Round "?"]
[White "SF 8 Aronian"]
[Black "SF 8 Carlsen, owner"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1br2k1/1p1n1ppp/p1p1pn2/2Pp4/3P4/qPN1PN2/2BB1PPP/3Q1RK1 b - - 0 13"]
[PlyCount "37"]
[TimeControl "60"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 13... b6 {0} 14. Nb1 {0} Qa2 {0.00/24 3} 15. Qc1 {0} bxc5 {
0.92/21 3} 16. Nc3 {0.73/22 1} Qa5 {0.71/23 1} 17. Nxd5 {0.64/20 0} Qb5 {0.77/
21 0} 18. Nc7 {0.81/23 0} Qb7 {0.67/22 0} 19. Nxa8 {0.86/20 0} Qxa8 {0.95/19 0}
20. Ba5 {0.71/19 0} Re8 {0.70/21 0} 21. dxc5 {0.72/21 0} Nxc5 {0.61/21 0} 22.
Bxh7+ {0.68/19 0} Nxh7 {0.59/21 0} 23. Qxc5 {0.68/19 0} Qb8 {0.77/19 0} 24. Nd2
{0.62/19 0} Nf6 {0.59/18 0} 25. Rc1 {0.53/16 0} Ng4 {0.81/17 0} 26. g3 {0.54/
16 0} Nf6 {0.54/17 0} 27. Nc4 {0.57/18 0} e5 {0.33/16 0} 28. Nd6 {0.39/15 0}
Re6 {0.45/18 0} 29. Nxc8 {0.31/17 0} Qxc8 {0.49/20 0} 30. Qc4 {0.56/16 0} Qb7 {
0.29/17 0} 31. Bb4 {0.29/16 0} Qb5 {0.35/21 0} 1/2-1/2

[/pgn]

any improvements for white, or simply a draw?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

b5 instead of b6 also draws.

[pgn]
[Event "Blitz 1m"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2017.06.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "b5 line, owner"]
[Black "b5 line"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1br2k1/3n1ppp/p1p1pn2/1pPp4/3P4/qPN1PN2/2BB1PPP/3Q1RK1 w - b6 0 31"]
[PlyCount "32"]
[TimeControl "60"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 31. b4 {0} Qb2 {-0.13/18 2} 32. Nb1 {2} Ne4 {0.00/17 1} 33.
Ng5 {2} Ndf6 {0.65/20 1} 34. Nxe4 {1} Nxe4 {0.44/20 0} 35. Be1 {2} e5 {0.59/21
0} 36. f3 {3} exd4 {0.51/21 0} 37. fxe4 {0.99/19 1} dxe3 {0} 38. Bc3 {1.20/20 2
} Qa2 {1.03/18 0} 39. Qd4 {3} f6 {0.60/17 1} 40. Bd3 {0.41/17 0} Re8 {0.48/15 0
} 41. Qxe3 {0.55/19 0} dxe4 {0.52/18 0} 42. Bxe4 {0.55/18 0} Bf5 {0.46/21 0}
43. Rxf5 {0.38/21 0} Qxb1+ {0.44/23 0} 44. Bxb1 {0.42/23 0} Rxe3 {0.37/24 0}
45. Rf3 {0.36/23 0} Rxf3 {0.36/24 0} 46. gxf3 {0.36/23 0} Kf7 {0.36/21 0}
1/2-1/2[/pgn]

in case white does not play 35.Ne4, but f3 instead, after ed4 ed4 Ng5! Bc3 Qa2 Bb3 Qb3 Qb3 h5:

[d]r1br2k1/5pp1/p1p2n2/1pPp2np/1P1P4/1QB2P2/6PP/1N3RK1 w - h6 0 40

black has a fortress draw(but jon will say again this is not a fortress )

so, I guess after Aronian's a3 black has at least 2 or 3 drawing continuations, but one must combine the skills of SF, Komodo and the best humans at the same time to be able to see all the relevant variations.

anyone having better resources for white?

so, my conclusion is that both a3 and c5 draw, so it is difficult to say what is the best move.

in any case, we must be extremely grateful to Aronian for making this move, as otherwise we would have missed hours of enjoyable analysis.

one think I acknowledge without reserves: the variations stemming from all possible continuations, both after a3 and c5, are simply gorgeous.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

oops, forgot to say how nice it is to have a thread entirely of one's own: no one visiting, no one scalding...

I wish I could post here unapproached until 2019.

[Kotlov]

a3 is homework by Aronian.
No chance for Carlsen calculate all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi9yEnL5Vls