Win or draw !?
[d]1k6/3R4/p7/8/8/1PN5/1KN2q2/8 b - - 0 69
Fascinating imbalance
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
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Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
Re: Fascinating imbalance
Black is slightly better.
[d]r1b1q1k1/pp1n1ppp/2pP4/8/2P5/4BN2/PP3PPP/R3KB1R b KQ - 0 13
[d]r1b1q1k1/pp1n1ppp/2pP4/8/2P5/4BN2/PP3PPP/R3KB1R b KQ - 0 13
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duncan
- Posts: 12038
- Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:50 pm
Re: Fascinating imbalance
the first position is a draw, so how would white prevent the second position developing ?Nordlandia wrote:Obviously black wins by zugzwangduncan wrote:what is white meant to do in this position.? or should white have avoided getting in this position. ?Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:[d]2r4r/4q1k1/8/4p3/4P3/4BB1P/3P1NP1/3NK3 b - - 0 1
black to play and... draw
SF says 500cps black edge, Komodo is more conservative with 250cps or so.
of course, you need no fortress detection of any kind here, just score well imbalance, score appropriately defence among pieces, as all white pieces defend each other very well, score minor on square adjacent to the own king, and the objective score becomes 0.0.
however, engines like to score only attacks, captures, and that is the result, SF even resigns in Fritz gui in completely equal position!
of course, if white starts pushing pawns to create advanced passers, black can easily win this, so white should simply move around, sticking to the fortress. as anyone could quickly guess, engines start implementing here precisely the wrong plan for white, so, if a macth is run, black could easily win more than half of the games, starting from a completely drawn position.
so much for match stats and objective game outcomes.
[d]6k1/8/8/4p3/1q2P3/4BB1P/r1rP1NP1/3NK3 w - - 0 1Once the knight repeat the king infiltrates the white camp.
[pgn][Event "Chiron 4 Testing, Rapid 30m+30s"]
[Site "DESKTOP-DD1B2QU"]
[Date "2017.01.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish 210117 64 POPCNT"]
[Black "Komodo 10.3 64-bit"]
[Result "0-1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "6k1/8/8/4p3/1q2P3/4BB1P/r1rP1NP1/3NK3 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "14"]
1. Kf1 Rxd2 2. Bxd2 Qxd2 3. h4 Kh8 4. h5 Qd4 5. Be2 Kh7 6. Ng4 Qd2 7. Bf3 Ra1
0-1
[/pgn]
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Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
Re: Fascinating imbalance
[d]r4k2/1ppb1pbp/1pn3p1/2n1p3/2P5/5N2/PPQ1BPPP/4K2R w K - 0 17
[pgn][Event "Karaganda Anniv 75th"]
[Site "Karaganda"]
[Date "2009.03.02"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Novoshitskiy, Yevgeniy"]
[Black "Khusnutdinov, Rustam"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E92"]
[WhiteElo "2350"]
[BlackElo "2483"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4k2/1ppb1pbp/1pn3p1/2n1p3/2P5/5N2/PPQ1BPPP/4K2R w K - 0 17"]
[PlyCount "22"]
[EventDate "2009.02.27"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "KAZ"]
[EventCategory "9"]
[SourceTitle "CBM 129 Extra"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2009.05.05"]
17. a3 e4 18. Nd2 Nd4 19. Qb1 Re8 20. Kf1 e3 21. fxe3 Rxe3 22. Bf3 Bf5 23. Qd1
Bh6 24. h4 Bf4 25. b4 Nd3 26. Bxb7 Nb2 27. Qc1 Bd3+ 0-1
[/pgn]
Brief Lichess Analysis - https://nb.lichess.org/G4lf00rH
---------------------------------
[d]r3bk2/1pp2pbp/1pn1n1p1/4p3/2P5/5N2/PP1QBPPP/5RK1 w - - 0 19
[pgn][Event "World Championship 35th-KK5"]
[Site "Lyon/New York"]
[Date "1990.10.15"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Karpov, Anatoly"]
[Black "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E92"]
[WhiteElo "2730"]
[BlackElo "2800"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r3bk2/1pp2pbp/1pn1n1p1/4p3/2P5/5N2/PP1QBPPP/5RK1 w - - 0 19"]
[PlyCount "69"]
[EventDate "1990.10.08"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "24"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[SourceTitle "CBM 021"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1991.04.01"]
19. b3 e4 20. Ne1 f5 21. Bd1 Ne5 22. Nc2 Rxa2 23. Qd5 Ke7 24. Nb4 c6 25. Qxe6+
Kxe6 26. Nxa2 Nf7 27. Be2 Nd6 28. Nb4 Bc3 29. Nc2 f4 30. Rd1 h5 31. f3 e3 32.
g3 g5 33. Bd3 h4 34. Kf1 c5 35. Ke2 b5 36. cxb5 Nxb5 37. Bc4+ Ke7 38. Rd5 Bf6
39. Rxc5 Nc3+ 40. Kf1 Bg6 41. Ne1 Kd6 42. Ra5 fxg3 43. hxg3 hxg3 44. Ng2 b5 45.
Ra6+ Ke7 46. Ra7+ Ke8 47. Ra8+ Bd8 48. Nxe3 bxc4 49. Nxc4 g4 50. Kg2 Ne2 51.
Ne5 gxf3+ 52. Kxf3 g2 53. Rxd8+ 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]Brief Lichess Analysis - https://nb.lichess.org/lrWc5Cse#36
[pgn][Event "Karaganda Anniv 75th"]
[Site "Karaganda"]
[Date "2009.03.02"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Novoshitskiy, Yevgeniy"]
[Black "Khusnutdinov, Rustam"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E92"]
[WhiteElo "2350"]
[BlackElo "2483"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4k2/1ppb1pbp/1pn3p1/2n1p3/2P5/5N2/PPQ1BPPP/4K2R w K - 0 17"]
[PlyCount "22"]
[EventDate "2009.02.27"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "KAZ"]
[EventCategory "9"]
[SourceTitle "CBM 129 Extra"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2009.05.05"]
17. a3 e4 18. Nd2 Nd4 19. Qb1 Re8 20. Kf1 e3 21. fxe3 Rxe3 22. Bf3 Bf5 23. Qd1
Bh6 24. h4 Bf4 25. b4 Nd3 26. Bxb7 Nb2 27. Qc1 Bd3+ 0-1
[/pgn]
Code: Select all
[Event "Karaganda Anniv 75th"]
[Site "Karaganda"]
[Date "2009.03.02"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Novoshitskiy, Yevgeniy"]
[Black "Khusnutdinov, Rustam"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E92"]
[WhiteElo "2350"]
[BlackElo "2483"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4k2/1ppb1pbp/1pn3p1/2n1p3/2P5/5N2/PPQ1BPPP/4K2R w K - 0 17"]
[PlyCount "22"]
[EventDate "2009.02.27"]
[EventType "tourn"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "KAZ"]
[EventCategory "9"]
[SourceTitle "CBM 129 Extra"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2009.05.05"]
17. a3 e4 18. Nd2 Nd4 19. Qb1 Re8 20. Kf1 e3 21. fxe3 Rxe3 22. Bf3 Bf5 23. Qd1
Bh6 24. h4 Bf4 25. b4 Nd3 26. Bxb7 Nb2 27. Qc1 Bd3+ 0-1
---------------------------------
[d]r3bk2/1pp2pbp/1pn1n1p1/4p3/2P5/5N2/PP1QBPPP/5RK1 w - - 0 19
[pgn][Event "World Championship 35th-KK5"]
[Site "Lyon/New York"]
[Date "1990.10.15"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Karpov, Anatoly"]
[Black "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E92"]
[WhiteElo "2730"]
[BlackElo "2800"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r3bk2/1pp2pbp/1pn1n1p1/4p3/2P5/5N2/PP1QBPPP/5RK1 w - - 0 19"]
[PlyCount "69"]
[EventDate "1990.10.08"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "24"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[SourceTitle "CBM 021"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1991.04.01"]
19. b3 e4 20. Ne1 f5 21. Bd1 Ne5 22. Nc2 Rxa2 23. Qd5 Ke7 24. Nb4 c6 25. Qxe6+
Kxe6 26. Nxa2 Nf7 27. Be2 Nd6 28. Nb4 Bc3 29. Nc2 f4 30. Rd1 h5 31. f3 e3 32.
g3 g5 33. Bd3 h4 34. Kf1 c5 35. Ke2 b5 36. cxb5 Nxb5 37. Bc4+ Ke7 38. Rd5 Bf6
39. Rxc5 Nc3+ 40. Kf1 Bg6 41. Ne1 Kd6 42. Ra5 fxg3 43. hxg3 hxg3 44. Ng2 b5 45.
Ra6+ Ke7 46. Ra7+ Ke8 47. Ra8+ Bd8 48. Nxe3 bxc4 49. Nxc4 g4 50. Kg2 Ne2 51.
Ne5 gxf3+ 52. Kxf3 g2 53. Rxd8+ 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
Code: Select all
[Event "World Championship 35th-KK5"]
[Site "Lyon/New York"]
[Date "1990.10.15"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Karpov, Anatoly"]
[Black "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E92"]
[WhiteElo "2730"]
[BlackElo "2800"]
[PlyCount "105"]
[EventDate "1990.10.08"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "24"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[SourceTitle "CBM 021"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1991.04.01"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. Be3 Qe7 8. dxe5
dxe5 9. Nd5 Qd8 10. Bc5 Nxe4 11. Be7 Qd7 12. Bxf8 Kxf8 13. Qc2 Nc5 14. Rd1 Nc6
15. O-O Ne6 16. Nb6 axb6 17. Rxd7 Bxd7 18. Qd2 Be8 19. b3 e4 20. Ne1 f5 21. Bd1
Ne5 22. Nc2 Rxa2 23. Qd5 Ke7 24. Nb4 c6 25. Qxe6+ Kxe6 26. Nxa2 Nf7 27. Be2 Nd6
28. Nb4 Bc3 29. Nc2 f4 30. Rd1 h5 31. f3 e3 32. g3 g5 33. Bd3 h4 34. Kf1 c5 35.
Ke2 b5 36. cxb5 Nxb5 37. Bc4+ Ke7 38. Rd5 Bf6 39. Rxc5 Nc3+ 40. Kf1 Bg6 41. Ne1
Kd6 42. Ra5 fxg3 43. hxg3 hxg3 44. Ng2 b5 45. Ra6+ Ke7 46. Ra7+ Ke8 47. Ra8+
Bd8 48. Nxe3 bxc4 49. Nxc4 g4 50. Kg2 Ne2 51. Ne5 gxf3+ 52. Kxf3 g2 53. Rxd8+
1/2-1/2
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Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
Re: Fascinating imbalance
[d]1n6/1b2k1pp/p7/1p6/3P4/2P4P/P4PP1/R5K1 w - - 0 25
Analysis by Stockfish 290117 64 POPCNT:
25.a4
+/= (0.61 ++) Depth: 32/54 00:00:43 122MN, tb=48371
(30.01.2017)
Analysis by Stockfish 290117 64 POPCNT:
25.a4
+/= (0.61 ++) Depth: 32/54 00:00:43 122MN, tb=48371
(30.01.2017)
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Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
Re: Fascinating imbalance
[pgn][Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1960.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Sakharov, Yuri N"]
[Black "Stein, Leonid"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E64"]
[PlyCount "85"]
[EventDate "1960.??.??"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 c5 4. d5 d6 5. g3 Bg7 6. Bg2 O-O 7. Nf3 e5 8. dxe6
fxe6 9. O-O Nc6 10. Bg5 d5 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. Qxd5+ Qxd5 14. Nxd5
Bxb2 15. Rab1 Bg7 16. Ng5 h6 17. Nc7 hxg5 (17... Nd4 $1 18. Nxa8 Nxe2+ 19. Kh1
hxg5 $44) 18. Nxa8 Nd4 19. Rfe1 b6 20. Nc7 Be5 21. Nb5 Nxb5 22. Rxb5 Be6 23. a3
Rd8 24. Rbb1 c4 25. Red1 Rxd1+ 26. Rxd1 Bb2 27. Be4 Kf7 28. a4 Ke7 29. Bxg6 a6
30. h4 gxh4 31. gxh4 c3 32. Bc2 b5 33. axb5 axb5 34. Rd4 Ba3 35. h5 b4 36. Re4
Kf7 37. Rxe6 Kxe6 38. h6 Kf6 39. Kg2 b3 40. Bxb3 Kg6 41. f4 Kxh6 42. e4 Kg6 43.
e5 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
[d]N1b2rk1/p5b1/1p4p1/2p3p1/3n4/6P1/P3PPBP/1R2R1K1 w - - 0 20
[d]N1b2rk1/pp4b1/6p1/2p3p1/8/6P1/P3nPBP/1R3R1K w - - 0 20
[Site "?"]
[Date "1960.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Sakharov, Yuri N"]
[Black "Stein, Leonid"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "E64"]
[PlyCount "85"]
[EventDate "1960.??.??"]
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 c5 4. d5 d6 5. g3 Bg7 6. Bg2 O-O 7. Nf3 e5 8. dxe6
fxe6 9. O-O Nc6 10. Bg5 d5 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. Qxd5+ Qxd5 14. Nxd5
Bxb2 15. Rab1 Bg7 16. Ng5 h6 17. Nc7 hxg5 (17... Nd4 $1 18. Nxa8 Nxe2+ 19. Kh1
hxg5 $44) 18. Nxa8 Nd4 19. Rfe1 b6 20. Nc7 Be5 21. Nb5 Nxb5 22. Rxb5 Be6 23. a3
Rd8 24. Rbb1 c4 25. Red1 Rxd1+ 26. Rxd1 Bb2 27. Be4 Kf7 28. a4 Ke7 29. Bxg6 a6
30. h4 gxh4 31. gxh4 c3 32. Bc2 b5 33. axb5 axb5 34. Rd4 Ba3 35. h5 b4 36. Re4
Kf7 37. Rxe6 Kxe6 38. h6 Kf6 39. Kg2 b3 40. Bxb3 Kg6 41. f4 Kxh6 42. e4 Kg6 43.
e5 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
[d]N1b2rk1/p5b1/1p4p1/2p3p1/3n4/6P1/P3PPBP/1R2R1K1 w - - 0 20
[d]N1b2rk1/pp4b1/6p1/2p3p1/8/6P1/P3nPBP/1R3R1K w - - 0 20
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Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
Re: Fascinating imbalance
[pgn][Event "Moscow"]
[Site "Moscow URS"]
[Date "1925.12.06"]
[Round "20"]
[White "Efim Bogoljubov"]
[Black "Emanuel Lasker"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D02"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2r1bk2/pp4pp/2nR4/8/4P3/5P2/PP4PP/3R2K1 b - - 0 23"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "1925.11.10"]
23... Ne5 24. Rd8 Rc2 25. R8d2 Rc7 26. Kf2 Ke7 27. h3 Rc6 28. f4 Nf7 29. Rd5
Ra6 30. a3 Bc6 31. R5d4 Rb6 32. b4 a5 33. bxa5 Ra6 34. R1d3 Rxa5 35. Kf3 Rc5
36. h4 h5 37. g4 hxg4+ 38. Kxg4 Nh6+ 39. Kg3 Rc1 40. a4 Rg1+ 41. Kf3 Ra1 42.
Rd1 Ra3+ 43. R1d3 Rxd3+ 44. Rxd3 Nf5 45. a5 Ke6 46. Rc3 Nd6 47. Rxc6 bxc6 48.
h5 c5 49. a6 Nb5 50. Ke3 c4 51. Kd2 Kd6 52. Ke3 Ke6 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
Stockfish assessment: +0.55 +/-
[Site "Moscow URS"]
[Date "1925.12.06"]
[Round "20"]
[White "Efim Bogoljubov"]
[Black "Emanuel Lasker"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D02"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "2r1bk2/pp4pp/2nR4/8/4P3/5P2/PP4PP/3R2K1 b - - 0 23"]
[PlyCount "59"]
[EventDate "1925.11.10"]
23... Ne5 24. Rd8 Rc2 25. R8d2 Rc7 26. Kf2 Ke7 27. h3 Rc6 28. f4 Nf7 29. Rd5
Ra6 30. a3 Bc6 31. R5d4 Rb6 32. b4 a5 33. bxa5 Ra6 34. R1d3 Rxa5 35. Kf3 Rc5
36. h4 h5 37. g4 hxg4+ 38. Kxg4 Nh6+ 39. Kg3 Rc1 40. a4 Rg1+ 41. Kf3 Ra1 42.
Rd1 Ra3+ 43. R1d3 Rxd3+ 44. Rxd3 Nf5 45. a5 Ke6 46. Rc3 Nd6 47. Rxc6 bxc6 48.
h5 c5 49. a6 Nb5 50. Ke3 c4 51. Kd2 Kd6 52. Ke3 Ke6 1/2-1/2
[/pgn]
Code: Select all
2r1bk2/pp4pp/2nR4/8/4P3/5P2/PP4PP/3R2K1 b - - 0 23-
Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
Re: Fascinating imbalance
[d]5b1k/1b3pp1/p4r1p/1p2p3/8/P5RQ/1PPr2PP/5R1K w - - 0 33
Stockfish assessment: -1.5 +/-
Stockfish assessment: -1.5 +/-
-
Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
Re: Fascinating imbalance
[d]2rqk2r/4npb1/p2pb1pp/4p3/2P1P3/2NP1PP1/P2B2BP/2Q1NRK1 b k - 0 19
-
Nordlandia
- Posts: 2821
- Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm
- Location: Sortland, Norway
Re: Fascinating imbalance
[d]1rbqnrk1/4pp1p/p2p2p1/2p5/q1P1PP2/2BP2PP/1P1QN1B1/3NRRK1 w - - 0 18