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Chess for Android upcoming network feature
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Daniel Shawul



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 2187
Location: Ethiopia
PostPost subject: Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature    Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:14 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
hgm wrote:
@Aart: Yes, sorry for sort of hijacking your thread. It is not completely off topic, though: you started the subject of adapters by promoting Folkert's connection adapter. Look at it on the bright side: It keeps your thread on top! Wink

Daniel Shawul wrote:
No I don't but you repeated ignore my comments. I said they could do that if they want but it would be duplicated work. And then I described the better option of telling the GUI to do it. So now you have something in between which you can completely avoid.

If I ignore them, it is because I think they are not valid points. In fact what you reiterate here is exactly the opposite of what IMO is actually the case. 'Duplicate work' is when you have to implement the same thing in many different GUIs. With an adapter using a protocol they all already know you only have to do it once.

And I still don't see what would be in the adapter that is also in the GUI. Your remark about having the adapter tell the GUI 'how to set up a position' or 'sending move lists' is still totally unclear to me. Why do you think an adapter would need to do any of that? What else can I do with points I don't understand other than ignore them, if no clarification is forthcoming?

In the adapter I propose there would only be some standard server / client code for making the network connection (which would not be in the GUI, which only makes pipe connections to daughter processes), and some algorithm for negociating the color, resigning games in either direction (accompanied by a telluser message) until both ends got it right. After that it would just relay the moves or result commands. None of that would be in the GUI.

Quote:
Look at all your notations see the adapter is immediately connected to a GUI. You brought about Arena and other GUIs just in your _last_ post which I pointed out. That is not an argument at all if you have the same GUI on both sides but you want p2p connections then better integrate it into GUI. That is how every p2p game or other app is setup. Don't invent something weird to make a point...

Weird? Shocked What is weird about wanting to allow Arena users to connect directly with WinBoard users on another machine? People ask for exactly such capabilities in GUIs all the time. And yes, the adadapter connects immediately to the GUI, sitting in between it and the network. That is why it is called an adapter. Polyglot also always connects directly to the GUI. Or engines. Why do you think that is significant? Surely you agree that even though engines always connect to GUIs, it doesn't mean it would be a good idea to incorporate the engine code into the GUI?

Quote:
But you only brought up connecting Arena vs Winboard, Arena vs Scid etc just in your last post.

Indeed, I brought it up when it became clear that it was not obvious from the beginning (as I thought it would be). What else would you want me to do? If there is a misunderstanding because I was apparently not clear enough in the initial post, should I not clear it up?

Quote:
And even at that there aren't many chances for the user to write as many adapters for GUIs as there are adapters for different chess variants. So you might as well integrate it with your gui in short add support to Arena, Scid etc simple.

Adding something to Arena would be 'simple'? How? It is closed source... And even if it were not, it would be duplicate work.

Quote:
Right but we were not talking about connecting entire GUIs in the first place.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. What is 'connecting entire GUIs'? Are there also half GUIs or quarter GUIs? If we are not talking about it, why do you bring it up? You think we should be talking about it?

Quote:
So either you have to admit it sounds like the referee engine designed to equip all GUIs that exist in the entire world in one blow. Or that it is better to integrate it in the GUI if the purpose is to have p2p connections between your apps ...


Well, as should be clear now, my purpose is not just to have p2p connections just between two apps. It is to provide a possibility for any two GUIs in the world to connect to each other. OK, the referee engine connects to a GUI. The adapter connects to a GUI. So yes, I suppose in this sense this adapter (and any adapter) is similar to a referee engine (or any engine).

The advantage of a modular approach is flexibility: the user can pick any set of components he likes, without having to accept a package deal, where he has to put up with aspects of the package he doesn't like just because he needs a unique feature only that package offers. This is why we moved away from stand-alone Chess programs, and separated GUI and engine. So that any GUI can be used with any engine, and vice versa.

I will reply to your comments point by point later (i.e continue the heated debate ). Let me just say that I have a working p2p connection that connects my apps to observe and play games against one another using engines or human players. But if I used another GUI on the other side Arena for instance, how is the adapter going to be able to communicate with it unless Arena is willing to accept commands from it? Arena doesn't even connect properly for FICs let alone let it self be handled by a third party adapter. If you just start the adapter as an engine, there is not much you can do with it as Arena always has to be the server! Then there is the problem that Arena accepts only two engines, so even if I let it be the server, you can't watch the game being played there. It is just too much too ask from a third party software. If you have a common server in between like FICS, then different GUIs can be used to act as slaves to it (observe/play a game). But with p2p you have one of them as server ... And as I said the original discussion was about connecting your apps p2p to do whatever you want with it. Many GUIs simply follow their own protocol. Well I will be curious to see how this turns out with or without using an adapter (doesn't matter), once you started coding it.
@Art, sorry for the hijacking your thread. Here we usually look for things to discuss whoever brought up the topics.
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Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Chess for Android upcoming network feature Aart Bik Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:41 pm
      Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:31 am
            Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Folkert van Heusden Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:47 am
                  Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:38 am
                        Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Folkert van Heusden Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:01 am
                              Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:27 am
                                    Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Folkert van Heusden Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:39 am
                                          Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:59 am
                                                Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Folkert van Heusden Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:06 am
                                                      Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Mehrmann Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:21 am
                                                            Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:37 am
                              Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:40 am
                        Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Don Dailey Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:12 pm
                              Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Don Dailey Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:21 pm
            Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Aart Bik Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:20 pm
      Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Aart Bik Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:48 pm
            Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:33 pm
                  Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:54 pm
      Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Aart Bik Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:43 pm
            Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:16 pm
                  Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:14 pm
                        Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:28 pm
                              Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:26 pm
                                    Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:01 am
                                          Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:03 pm
                                                Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:59 pm
                                                      Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:53 pm
                                                            Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:34 am
                                                                  Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:14 pm
                                                                        Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:37 pm
                                                                              Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:53 pm
                                                                                    Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature H.G.Muller Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:14 am
                                                                        Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Aart Bik Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:36 pm
            Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Daniel Shawul Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:55 pm
      Re: Chess for Android upcoming network feature Aart Bik Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:35 am
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