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EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo
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H.G.Muller



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 12748
Location: Amsterdam

PostPost subject: Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo    Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:26 am Reply to topic Reply with quote

The deviation between the empirical points and the curves indicates a defect in the model. What is especially strange is that for deltaElo > 0 the blue points seem to follow the yellow line better (the Gaussian model), while for deltaElo < 0, the green line seems a better fit. So it seems the real curve has some asymmetry.

The two curves are supposed to have the same slope in (0, 0.5). The Logistic has longer tails than the Gaussian. Apparently the empirical distribution does not have such tails. Whether that would produce a fit that follows the tails or has the same slope in the center will depend on where most of the data is located. The noise in the blue points suggests that data was most abundant near the center, thus it should be no surprise that it tries to fit the slope there, at the expense of errors in the tails.

It cannot be excluded that the default prior causes compression of the scale. I have seen that problem with BayesElo in the ChessWar promo division, where there is a wild range of playing strengths (some 2000 Elo), and the top and bottom play comparatively few games (because it is a Swiss tourney). Then the prior assumption that the win probabilities can be anything is just no good. Determining the correct prior for a given topology of the pairing network is a very tough problem, though.

Note that games between engines differing ~400 Elo actually gives the most information on the overall scaling, while games with Elo differences close to 0 contribute only very little. Testers, however, usually focus on the latter. So it is comparatively easy for any fitting procedure to hide deficiencies of the model by an overall scaling of the ratings, as the latter is only weakly restricted by the data.
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Subject Author Date/Time
EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:27 pm
      Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Adam Hair Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:38 pm
            Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:46 pm
                  Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Edmund Moshammer Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:54 pm
                  Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:29 pm
                        Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:24 pm
                              Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:52 pm
                                    Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:46 pm
                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Miguel A. Ballicora Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:05 pm
                                                Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:44 pm
                                                      Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Miguel A. Ballicora Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:58 pm
                                                            Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:35 pm
                                                                  Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Miguel A. Ballicora Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:12 pm
                                                                        Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:44 am
                                                                              Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Miguel A. Ballicora Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:48 pm
                                                                                    Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:21 pm
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:11 pm
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:29 am
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:32 am
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:26 am
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:17 pm
                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:36 pm
                                                Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:00 pm
                                                Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Adam Hair Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:23 am
                                                      Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:18 pm
                                                            Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Rémi Coulom Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:58 pm
                                                                  Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:09 pm
                                                                        Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Rémi Coulom Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:16 pm
                                                                              Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:43 pm
                                                                                    Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Rémi Coulom Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:07 am
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:31 am
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Juan Molina Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:31 am
                                                                                          Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:22 pm
                                                                  Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:15 am
                                                                        Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo H.G.Muller Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:32 am
                                                            Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Adam Hair Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:01 pm
                  Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Sven Schüle Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:21 pm
                        Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:54 pm
                              Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Sven Schüle Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:22 am
                                    Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Rémi Coulom Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:51 pm
                                    Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Kai Laskos Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:09 am
            Re: EloStat, Bayeselo and Ordo Adam Hair Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:26 am
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