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I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship?
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Don Dailey



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 4502
PostPost subject: Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship    Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:04 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
JuLieN wrote:
chrisw wrote:
JuLieN wrote:
chrisw wrote:
gleperlier wrote:
gerold wrote:

If testers in this forum and other forums test Houdini and post the results and allow games to be downloaded is that breaking the copyright if copyright holder did not approve it first.


Please stop trolling.

If one don't understand the difference between posting a game and publishing an Engine analysis on a website for the most important event in Chess, then Rolling Eyes


Not specifically referring to the above but there seems to be some confusion here. The "personal use" concept comes from the music and video industry, where broadcast to an audience is excluded by the "personal use" term.

But video and audio is different to software, the output of a video/audio CD is the copyright material, the song, the film or whatever and you would have no licence to distribute the copyright material to others again and again. The output of a program however is not copyright to the developer, his copyright extends to the code and support data only. Thus Robert Houdart, or anyone else, has no right to prevent use of the program output in any way, "personal use" terms or not.


This *might* (I say might because I'm not a specialist of compared law, so my knowledge of the anglo-saxon law is very superficial) be true in anglo-saxons countries, Chris, but not in other countries. For example in continental Europe the copyright laws for software are exactly the same as the ones used for books and movies/songs. And in Belgium, where I believe Robert lives, the law is nearly a duplicate of the French one (Belgium's law is based on Napoléon's civil code, just like France). They are divided in two categories:

- moral rights (those are actually attenuated, when compared to those for books/movies/songs, but we won't discuss them here).
- patrimonial rights. Those ones are subdivided into:
* reproduction rights
* representation rights
* traduction, adaptation rights
* selling rights

In our case here, the problem concerns the representation rights. They are often defined as "the communication of the work to the public by any mean" (ex: demonstrating a software during a fair, conferences, and so on...). This right is only suspended for the "private representations, and exclusively inside the family circle." This is not exactly what this FIDE event is. Wink

Other accepted exceptions are:
- analyses and quotations of the work;
- press reviews;
- broadcast to the public for pure information about the work;
- parody, mockery.

So the question is: is broadcasting Houdini's output to the public a representation of Houdini? I don't think so. An illegal representation of Houdini would be to let the public of an event use Houdini on public computers.


ok, but another example ....

suppose we write some software, a simple algorithm, it takes any page of text, extracts the 1st, 13th, 25th, 19th etc etc according to a stored formula, 37th word and concatenates them into a sentence.

output = blaha blahb blahz la di da

My contention is that we have copyright over the program but not over the output. Simplistically we have:

program operates on [huge sample of all the world's texts] and outputs a string of data according to an algorithm.

Likewise, chess program operates on [huge sample of possible chess positions] and outputs a string of data according to an algorithm.

In neither case can the programmer predict the output data string, because he cannot personally deal with all the possible input situations. The programmer cannot lay copyright claim over a huge subset of possible output data strings that he doesn't know about and can't predict and where he also has no copyright over part of the data that goes into creating the output, namely the massively large possible input situations.


Yes, you are right. Kant proposed a simple philosophical tool to see if an idea is right or wrong: universalization. To check if an idea is absurd or not, push it to its limits. Here, for instance, we could generalize your program in order to produce a totally random (in length and content) string of characters. If this result could be copyrighted then we could claim a copyright over any future book or article (because we could say that it was produced using our software). Wink

But here the questions was legally even simpler: the question is not "Does the FIDE has the right to publish Houdini's output to the public", but more exactly "does the FIDE has the right to produce a public output with Houdini?" And the answer to this second question is "legally, yes". Although it depends on Houdini's user license that the FIDE agreed to. Maybe Robert Houdard specifically forbids to publish Houdini's outputs in public places? Smile


For example if I test a position using Houdini and then I post the output, it's no longer personal use because I am making the analysis public.

I don't agree with the philosophical tool of pushing it to the limit. I'm not refuting your argument but what my understand of what Kant said from your description. Is eating good for you? Of course it is, you will die if you don't eat. Push it to the limit and you will die of gluttony in one day. Some medications can save your life - but overdoes on them and they will kill you.
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Subject Author Date/Time
I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship? Jorge Pichard Sat May 12, 2012 12:15 pm
      Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Julien MARCEL Sat May 12, 2012 12:50 pm
            Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Gabriel LEPERLIER Sat May 12, 2012 1:07 pm
                  Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Albert Silver Sat May 12, 2012 2:35 pm
                        Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Gabriel LEPERLIER Sat May 12, 2012 2:46 pm
                              Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Albert Silver Sat May 12, 2012 3:30 pm
                                    Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Robert Houdart Sat May 12, 2012 3:59 pm
                                          Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Chris Whittington Sat May 12, 2012 4:10 pm
                                                Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Dr.Wael Deeb Sat May 12, 2012 4:53 pm
                                          Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Mike Scheidl Sat May 12, 2012 4:36 pm
                                          Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship gerold daniels Sat May 12, 2012 5:02 pm
                                                Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Gabriel LEPERLIER Sat May 12, 2012 5:04 pm
                                                      Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Chris Whittington Sat May 12, 2012 5:14 pm
                                                            Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Julien MARCEL Sat May 12, 2012 5:34 pm
                                                                  Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Miguel A. Ballicora Sat May 12, 2012 5:50 pm
                                                                  Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Chris Whittington Sat May 12, 2012 6:15 pm
                                                                        Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Julien MARCEL Sat May 12, 2012 6:30 pm
                                                                              Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Chris Whittington Sat May 12, 2012 6:47 pm
                                                                                    Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Julien MARCEL Sat May 12, 2012 6:54 pm
                                                                                          Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Gabriel LEPERLIER Sat May 12, 2012 6:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Graham Banks Sat May 12, 2012 7:04 pm
                                                                              Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Don Dailey Sat May 12, 2012 7:04 pm
                                                                                    Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Julien MARCEL Sat May 12, 2012 7:14 pm
                                                                                    Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Chris Whittington Sat May 12, 2012 7:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Julien MARCEL Sat May 12, 2012 7:38 pm
                                                                  Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Ronald de Man Sat May 12, 2012 6:54 pm
                                                      Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Alex Brown Sat May 12, 2012 6:12 pm
                                                            Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Gabriel LEPERLIER Sat May 12, 2012 6:14 pm
                                          Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Uri Blass Sat May 12, 2012 6:32 pm
      Re: I don't see the analysis of Houdini in this Championship Dr.Wael Deeb Sat May 12, 2012 4:55 pm
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