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Stockfish port to C# Complete
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Vincent Diepeveen



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1738
Location: The Netherlands
PostPost subject: Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete    Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:50 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
RoadWarrior wrote:
Interesting - Peter Österlund has just released a C++ implementation of his strong (Elo 2682) Java engine CuckooChess. He says that it's about twice as fast as the Java version: http://talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42999

From experience, C# runs faster than Java. So any claim of a C/C# slowdown in excess of a factor of 2 needs some pretty strong evidence before I'm going to believe it.


Yeah about a factor of 4 it is effectively.

Just try to do the same things like the C engines ok. Multiproces/multithread, hashtables, and elo-optimizations rather than nps optimizations.

If i turn off hashtable for example in Diep for the last ply, diep's nps goes up 20%.

Years ago already we saw 20 mln nps engines, and that was with forward pruning and with elo optimization.

Every compare here is with GCC. A junk compiler i use daily, so the junk it produces i know everything about. For free and therefore everyone who has a commercial interest in throwing in persons to keep it slow, they do that (ever seen a $100 billion company not do something like that to keep a $100 billion company huh?). A compiler factor 2 slower already, and even then nothing is on par with it.

What will happen if you have a full blown engine is that your L1i will totally get overrun by C#, that the caches get stressed to the limit, and that everywhere penalties will be there for C#. Heavy branch mispredicts which the pgo (not working very well for GCC to say polite - it's losing already 30% there) of the C/C++ engines doesn't have at all, dozens of cycles just for loading a few bytes out of L1i, which no C/C++ engine has either.

And all that won't be there in a testlab comparing just 1 routine versus a C compile.

And now you still are in the proces of comparing to beancounters so far...

Diep has a huge evaluation function, yet it really suffers also from a 1.34% L1i missrate. That 1.34% might seem little to you, but it's a huge slowdown.

If diep would be in C#, even if you'd produce efficient code with C#, which C# won't do of course, then you're looking at a slowdown of factor 5 already *just because of the L1i*.

Also i've never seen a C# engine use effectively a core or 16, someone already referred to that here earlier that when he's doing things SMP that he slows down a lot more.

So you'll be factors slower than C/C++. Where we already can't take it serious when you're 20% slower, let alone factor 2, so far the evidence we have there from a bit more objective tests than you did do here so far is that the slowdown is more of a factor 4 than factor 2.

And that for a programming language from which just got designed to counter Java.

The real question is: why would you want to slowdown volunteerly factor 4?

That's like the difference between an i7 sixcore and my old dual opteron dual core from januari 2006. A six year difference, as they ain't following Moore very well...

It's a no brainer of course: go use C for a chess engine, as most also mess up with C++ versus C.

Wanting to run 6 years behind volunteerly just because of the language choice is something i'll never understand.

It's true you also can say that from assembler versus C; assembler is a lot faster, yet it's also way more work and not portable.

In reality in object oriented languages you type more lines of code than in an imperative programming language. Now i do understand those who favour C++ over C, as in theory you can reach the same speed.

So learning that language better in manner that you write code similar to C, i do understand the choice of some for C++.

Yet C# or Java. 6 years. Even a T-ford from start 20th century wasn't driving on the roads factor 4 slower than todays cars.

Over here it's getting towards 130 KM/hour (most areas still 100 or 120 caused by civil servants who all vote for the communists and don't have a car themselves). A t-ford could definitely reach 130 KM/hour within a factor of 4.

So you're running 100 years behind man.

Vincent
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Subject Author Date/Time
Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:13 pm
      Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Jan Brouwer Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:29 pm
            Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:45 pm
                  Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Jan Brouwer Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:51 pm
                        Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:04 pm
                              Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Mel Cooper Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:11 pm
                        Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:08 pm
                        Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:57 pm
                              Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:05 pm
                                    Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:24 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:27 pm
                                                Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:44 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:47 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:59 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:11 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Marco Costalba Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:49 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:00 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Marco Costalba Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:22 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Ronald de Man Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:53 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:01 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Matthew R. Brades Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Ronald de Man Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:10 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Marco Costalba Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:55 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Marco Costalba Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:42 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:00 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:03 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Ronald de Man Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:41 pm
                                    Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Mark Pearce Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:27 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:12 am
                                                Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Mark Pearce Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:43 am
                                                      Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Gary Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:15 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Mark Pearce Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:28 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Mark Pearce Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:13 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Balint Pfliegel Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:15 am
                                                                              Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Mark Pearce Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:40 am
                                                                        Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:50 am
                                                                              Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Marco Costalba Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:14 am
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:23 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Marco Costalba Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:16 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Jim Ablett Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:23 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:03 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Jim Ablett Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:13 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Jim Ablett Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:54 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Jim Ablett Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:08 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Robert Hyatt Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:01 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Jim Ablett Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:19 pm
                                                                                          GCC 4.7.0 versus intel c++ Vincent Diepeveen Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:15 am
                                                                                          Re: GCC 4.7.0 versus intel c++ Jim Ablett Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:18 am
                                                                                          Re: GCC 4.7.0 versus intel c++ Vincent Diepeveen Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:15 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Ricardo Barreira Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:46 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Mark Pearce Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:03 am
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Balint Pfliegel Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Balint Pfliegel Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Balint Pfliegel Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Ted Wong Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:50 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:38 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Balint Pfliegel Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:02 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:42 am
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Vincent Diepeveen Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Mark Pearce Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:43 pm
      Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:23 am
            Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Balint Pfliegel Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:48 pm
                  Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:19 am
                        Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Balint Pfliegel Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:51 am
                              Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete David Whitten Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:19 pm
                                    Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Balint Pfliegel Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:47 am
      Re: Stockfish port to C# Complete Jim Ablett Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:14 pm
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