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The evaluation value and value returned by minimax search
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Vincent Diepeveen



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1738
Location: The Netherlands
PostPost subject: Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc    Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:55 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
zamar wrote:
diep wrote:
zamar wrote:
diep wrote:
zamar wrote:

[snip]
Sorry, but your writing is complete crap and disinformation. You don't seem to understand much about the subject.



So the guy who parameter tunes himself using positions his own program based upon the evaluation difference of positions,
he writes about me that i spread 'desinformation and crap'.

Whereas the only out of us 2 who is clearly lying, is you, as you encouraged the Chinese guy to NOT do the same.

Now *that* is hypocrisy.


I wrote about one tuning experiment which failed. Of course it's possible that it works, but I got the details wrong... I'm not intentionally encougaring/discouraging anybody.


Your main vehicle of tuning is exactly this - you obviously spit out desinformation here deliberately that it failed for you, as it didn't.

It's your main form of tuning.


In case you didn't know, our main tuning method is documented in here:
http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Stockfish%27s+tuning+method

I've of course tried various alternatives, but the experiment I told about this thread failed. I've also heard that Komodo team tried something similar and failed too (not 100% sure about this)


Initially there was a posting from Marco Costalba claiming Stockfish was getting tuned by playing sets of 1000 games 1 minute all.

We did not get any answers then on how you could actually measure elo differences between engines then, as independantly several authors concluded they needed 10k to 40k games for that as a minimum.

Then some years later you posted yourself some tuningsstory on that you're now playing very superbullet games and 5000 games each set.

You really think we're eating each time a new tuningsstory as being the truth?

After years of playing at 128+ cores, crafty still is badly tuned, unlike Stockfish.

Oh by the way it needs 40k games for each run. 5000 really is getting closer than 1000, yet to progress 0.5 elopoint that won't be enough.

This whereas the deep blue paper is pretty clear huh. Add statistical significance to what they were doing back then, and you're getting exactly to the values that you ended up in SF.

Why each time a new story here and discouraging the Chinese guy to do something that in the first place had your full attention.

In fact i very well remember some online conversations i had of a few years ago, where very precise was formulated what's getting done and what you guys were exploring/wondering about.

Vincent

p.s. if you automatically tune playing games you tune far more passive than with other methods. It's easy to figure out therefore which engines were tuned by playing games and which are not.
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Subject Author Date/Time
The evaluation value and value returned by minimax search Ma Chao Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:51 am
      Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Joona Kiiski Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:06 pm
            Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Pio Korinth Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:51 pm
            Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:34 am
            Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:58 am
                  Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Joona Kiiski Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:20 pm
                        Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:41 pm
                              Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Joona Kiiski Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:44 pm
                                    Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:47 pm
                                          Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Joona Kiiski Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:51 pm
                                                Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:55 pm
                                                      Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Marco Costalba Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:04 pm
                                                            Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:10 pm
                                                                  Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Joona Kiiski Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:03 pm
                        Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:43 pm
                        Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Uri Blass Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:07 pm
                              Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:23 pm
                                    Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Joona Kiiski Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:47 pm
                                          Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:50 pm
                                                Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Joona Kiiski Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:52 pm
                              Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Joona Kiiski Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:42 pm
      Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Han Chengye Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:22 am
            Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Marco Costalba Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:48 pm
      Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Ralph Stoesser Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:12 pm
            Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:27 am
      Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:09 am
      Re: The evaluation value and value returned by minimax searc Vincent Diepeveen Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:27 am
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