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Number 1 engine on long time controls
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Milos Stanisavljevic



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 1162
PostPost subject: Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls    Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:52 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Uri Blass wrote:
I disagree about the following:
"if it is gaining more ELO per doubling that Houdni, then the logicial conclusion is that it WILL overtake it."

One example may be enough to prove that the conclusion is wrong and
I guess that houdini 32 bits gain more ELO per doubling than houdini 64 bits because of diminishing returns but houdini 32 bits is not going to overtake houdini 64 bits at long time control.

I think that you need to start with not equal time control but with time control that gives result that is close to 50%

If you find that the program that use more time earns more from doubling
in this case then it is more logical to think that it can beat the stronger program at long time control and even in this case it is not something that I feel sure about it.

Finally someone who understands and doesn't write the usual nonsense.
I agree with everything you write.
Don is as usual writing a load of crap and pretending he doesn't understand (for marketing reasons).
He uses extremely short time controls where the initial difference between 2 engines is exaggerated and then tries to imply the conclusion on something that is more than 3 orders of magnitude longer TC. This is at least 10 doublings and just for fun I extrapolated his table to long TCs (40moves/120mins) using the simplest linear extrapolation.
So lets see (40moves/120mins is 3min/move and is approximately equivalent to 6000sec+100sec - 10 doublings - Level 10)
Code:
Level where 00 is 6 + 0.1 and each successive level is double.                                                                                                                                                 
                     Komodo                                                                               
            HOUDINI   gains                                                                               
            -------  ------                                                                                               
 Level 00 -  +143.3                                                                                       
 Leval 01 -   +97.0   +46.3                                                                               
 Leval 02 -   +74.6   +22.4                                                                               
 Level 03 -   +52.8   +21.8                                                                               
 Level 04 -   +39.5   +13.3                                                                               
 Level 05 -   +27.0   +12.5                     
 Level 06 -   +14.5                                                           
 Leval 07 -   +2.0                                                                             
 Level 08 -   -10.5                                                                       
 Level 09 -   -23.0                                                                             
 Level 10 -   -35.5                                                       

At 40moves/120mins Komodo should be 35.5 Elo stronger than Houdini. (even with shape-preserving cubic extrapolation, at the end Komodo should still be 22Elo stronger!)
In reality Komodo is not stronger at any time control, eventually there might be a point where it becomes equal (asymptotic point with extremely large time per move).

So Don, please stop with nonsense, not all the ppl here are idiots to believe your marketing...
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Subject Author Date/Time
Number 1 engine on long time controls Teodoriu Catalin Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:17 pm
      Re: NUMBER 1 ENGINE ON LONG TIME CONTROLS Uri Blass Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:52 pm
            Re: NUMBER 1 ENGINE ON LONG TIME CONTROLS Teodoriu Catalin Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:02 am
      Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:01 pm
            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Lonnie Cook Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:21 pm
                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:16 pm
                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Robert Houdart Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:40 pm
                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:51 pm
                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Robert Houdart Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:13 am
                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ignacio Garcia Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:29 am
                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:30 am
                                                Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Tom Giampietro Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:05 am
                                                      Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:40 am
                                                            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Robert Houdart Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:52 am
                                                                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Peter Skinner Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:54 am
                                                            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Carl Bicknell Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:57 am
                                                                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ben-Hur Carlos Langoni Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:22 pm
                                                                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Carl Bicknell Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:00 am
                                                                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ben-Hur Carlos Langoni Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:04 pm
                                                      Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls George Speight Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:37 am
                                                Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Uri Blass Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:43 am
                                                      Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Sedat Canbaz Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:54 am
                                                            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ben-Hur Carlos Langoni Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:17 pm
                                                                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Sedat Canbaz Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:05 pm
                                                                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Sedat Canbaz Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:57 pm
                                                      Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:57 pm
                                                            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Uri Blass Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:33 pm
                                                            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ignacio Garcia Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:41 pm
                                                                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:51 pm
                                                                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ignacio Garcia Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:34 pm
                                                                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ricardo Barreira Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:54 pm
                                                                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Uri Blass Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:53 pm
                                                                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:35 pm
                                                                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Jouni Uski Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:18 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Robert Houdart Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Larry Kaufman Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:56 pm
                                                                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Milos Stanisavljevic Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Milos Stanisavljevic Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:22 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Larry Kaufman Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:48 pm
                                                                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Milos Stanisavljevic Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:52 pm
                                                                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Larry Kaufman Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:11 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Milos Stanisavljevic Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:19 pm
                                                                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:35 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ignacio Garcia Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:58 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:38 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ignacio Garcia Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:40 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Jesús Muñoz Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Ignacio Garcia Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:22 am
                                                                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Jesús Muñoz Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Don Dailey Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:30 am
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Jesús Muñoz Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:31 am
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Don Dailey Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:57 am
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Don Dailey Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Jouni Uski Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:10 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Don Dailey Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Bigler Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:52 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Larry Kaufman Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:58 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Bigler Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:03 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Larry Kaufman Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:46 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Terry McCracken Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:37 am
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Carl Bicknell Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:19 am
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Terry McCracken Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:49 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Dr.Wael Deeb Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Terry McCracken Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:52 am
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls. Uri Blass Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:05 pm
                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Bram Mourik Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:01 pm
                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:30 pm
                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:37 pm
                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Bram Mourik Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:58 pm
                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:25 pm
                                                Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls om prakash Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:00 am
                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls enrico fagiuoli Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:43 pm
                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Leon Coleman Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:23 am
                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:47 pm
                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Vincent Diepeveen Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:44 am
                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Uri Blass Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:30 pm
                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:34 pm
                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls enrico fagiuoli Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:57 pm
                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:48 pm
                                                Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls enrico fagiuoli Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:09 am
                                                Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Vincent Diepeveen Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:20 pm
                                                      Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:26 pm
                                                            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Vincent Diepeveen Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:51 pm
                                                                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:55 pm
                                                                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:49 pm
                                                                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:10 pm
                                                                                    Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:30 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:43 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Uri Blass Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:14 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Uri Blass Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:45 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Larry Kaufman Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:58 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:23 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Carl Bicknell Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:41 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Larry Kaufman Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:10 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Carl Bicknell Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:49 pm
                                                                                          Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:36 am
                                                                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Robert Flesher Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:28 pm
                                                                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Dr.Wael Deeb Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:55 pm
                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Jon Dart Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:09 pm
                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Andrew R. Case Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:14 pm
      Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Gabor Szots Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:19 pm
            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:21 pm
                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls om prakash Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:16 pm
                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Larry Kaufman Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:51 pm
                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls om prakash Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:54 pm
                  Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls George Speight Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:42 am
                        Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Jouni Uski Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:35 am
                              Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Maurizio Maglio Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:41 am
            Re: Number 1 engine on long time controls Don Dailey Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:34 pm
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