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POLL:Man vs Machine ?
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Uri Blass



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 5958
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel
PostPost subject: Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ?    Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:02 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
Werewolf wrote:
Don wrote:
Werewolf wrote:
Don wrote:


Part of the answer has to do with the time controls and why humans play better and better with more time. There is still the tactical vs positional play issue and we might now ask if computers generally outplay humans positionally.


Related to that comment is the fascinating subject of what strong humans do when they play chess with (say) 10 minutes to think per move. I'm trying to formulate an 'algorithm' for what goes on which is more detailed than what Kotov proposed back in the 70's.

If engines have an algorithm.....why can't humans?


When I made very rapid improvement in tournament chess I made up algorithms for myself. They were crude but they worked. At my level the primary problem was blunders, so I was determined to avoid blunders as much as possible and had several steps - one of involved doing the equivalent of a 1 ply search (which I did not do in time trouble) and I would ask myself what "good" is there in each legal move? Even the worst moves have something good about them if you use your imagination. This actually helped me play very imaginatively and I found tactics that were not obvious.

But the step that payed off the most was the last step. After getting a candidate move that I was ready to play, I had to convince myself that it was not a blunder (at least not an obvious blunder.) And I allocated a small amount of time checking the most obvious cases such is whether it would now be hanging, is the piece I'm moving defending something that is now vulnerable, can I be checkmated on the spot, etc. No matter how sure I was of the move before these steps I discovered that I still would benefit from doing this anyway. Most of this was trivial stuff, but the trivial will get you well beyond the median tournament player level.

I know this is not what you had in mind, but I think it would be fun to develop a deterministic move playing algorithm that you could "execute" in your brain. A human executed chess program. A computer could "test" the algorithm so you could work out the details. The only problem is that I would bet that you could not consistently execute the algorithm without making an occasional error. After a game you could check with a computer to see if you made any errors!

Such a human executed program would be very weak - but maybe it would still be over 1200 level. An enhanced version of such a program would incorporate some human judgement and might be much stronger.


Don,
I would LOVE to speak to more about this because I've also made quite a jump recently in elo and some of my ideas sound vaguely similar to yours.

A month ago I posted about a 'Residual Image' problem I was having. I've read Nikolai Krogius' book on this and he suggests asking the question: "What has changed on the board?" (i.e. to do with legal moves) after every 1 ply of search in your head. I tried it and....well it helped a lot.

Here's another idea I actually developed from a comment Vas made a couple of years ago:

Premise 1: Strong players (>2200 elo) play well and rarely blunder.
Premise 2: Strong players blunder regularly against top engines

False conclusion 1: Humans don't concentrate well against machines, they don't take the game seriously
Better conclusion 2: Super accurate play from the machine induces blunders from humans

Action taken by me: Develop an extensive repertoire that leads to complex positions (well known to me) that require accurate play.
Result observed: It's amazing how even strong players will quickly go astray. In a bad position they are prone to blundering if they under pressure.


I think that the question is what do you consider to be a blunder.

I think that a tactical mistake that the computer needs a big depth to find is not a blunder and I think that >2200 players rarely blunder by missing some tactics that the computer can find by 1 or 2 ply search.
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Subject Author Date/Time
POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:19 am
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:22 pm
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:25 pm
            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:10 pm
                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:27 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:35 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:45 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:49 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:03 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:27 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Mel Cooper Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:04 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:15 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Mel Cooper Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:23 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:53 pm
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Michael Golub Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:21 pm
            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:45 pm
                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:50 am
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:35 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Thomas Mayer Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:41 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Thomas Mayer Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:47 am
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:30 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:18 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:08 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Carl Bicknell Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:15 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:09 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Carl Bicknell Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:35 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Uri Blass Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:02 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:38 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:10 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:43 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:19 pm
                                                      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:14 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:17 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:58 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:15 pm
                                                      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:42 pm
                                                            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:11 pm
                                                                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:27 pm
                                                                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:20 am
                                                                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:15 am
                                                                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Uri Blass Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:08 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:44 am
                                                                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:16 am
                                                                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:16 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:14 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:37 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:01 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:32 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Dr.Wael Deeb Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:28 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:52 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:20 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:19 pm
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