ChessUSA.com TalkChess.com
Hosted by Your Move Chess & Games
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

POLL:Man vs Machine ?
Post new topic    TalkChess.com Forum Index -> Computer Chess Club: General Topics Flat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sedat Canbaz



Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 1385
Location: Antalya/Turkey
PostPost subject: Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ?    Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:14 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
MM wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:
MM wrote:


Hi Sedat,

yes, i know hardware and opening book gives plus elo.
But basically a huge hardware is devastating against a small hardware. Much less devastating against a superGM.
Why?
Because two engines supported by very different HW make a battle of tactics and the one who has the better HW triumphs almost always.

In matches Engines vs Humans, if the engine has a limited chess knowledge, you can give it a 20 times stronger hardware and that engine will probably keep on missing the correct positional manouevres, because it has a limited sensibility for the positional play and the add of calculation power hardly can compensate it (it depends by the position and the depth of the position anyway).
And this is very important because in match human vs engine, the human being should and must try to drive the game into a positional strategical direction, in which engines have the main difficulties.

So the difference in elo that you showed in your scheme, are obviously right, but they are related to machines vs machines, not to machines vs humans.

Basically: if engine A, with super HW and elo 3500 is 350 elo stronger than engine B, with small HW, and this same engine B has the same elo of Carlsen, we are not allowed to say that engine A is 350 elo stronger than Carlsen, for the reasons i just explained.

As regards the opening book, it is different. The impact of an opening book, if made very well, can make you win a game so i would say that it is very important.

Thank you.

Best Regards



Dear Maurizio,

Not at all...its my pleasure

Actually i agree with some of your notes,but however not with all

Especially i dont agree with you about the hardware speed's factor

Believe me,the hardware speed is playing a big role,if we are talking about Man vs Machine

I know that in 1990 years, the egines were weaker...but remember also that the hardwares were much slower too

I think this is one of the main reasons/factors about why in 1990 years GMs were stronger than the Machines

Some notes about the previous played matches-Man vs Machine:

1)In 1990 years = GMs were stronger than Chess Engines
2)In the early of 2000 years = GMs were equal to Chess Engines
3)In 2003/2004/2005/2006 = Chess Engines performed approx. 190 Elo better than GMs
4)Now we are in 2012 = We have Houdini,Rybka,Critter and much faster hardwares than the past


Kind Regards,
Sedat


Hello Sedat,

i know HW has a big role, i just say that the difference in software and HW between old engines and old machines, compared to ours (Houdini, Critter, Komodo, i7, xeon e5 ect) have much more influence in the world of chess engines and much less in an hypotetical comparison human vs machine.

It's like to say:

well, 10 years ago, the best engine on the best HW of that period, was 600 elo weaker than Houdini on a octal right now.

Ok, it can be true.

But this calculation may be applicable to the engines, not to the humans.

I think that in 1990, Kasparov was clearly by far stronger than Deep Thought (he showed).

In 1996 Kasparov defeated again Deep Blu of IBM but in 1997 he lost in a controversial revenge.

We are in 2012.

Obvious, software has been improved, HW has been hugely improved.

But, especially HW, it is usuful mainly to calculate. Calculate what? Calculate variations, lines, kn/s, millions positions per seconds.

A human plays differently. He also calculate but he uses much more heuristic. A human can't calculate probably 1/1000 of what a machine calculates in 10 seconds.

So a human is forced to analyze the position to try some pattern, some scheme, that he knows and that he can work on, especially on long time range.

That's exactly what machine can't do and can't see.
A long range plan.

That's why the huge improvement of the speed of the machines, is very usueful against other slower machines, but no so useful against a humans.

That's what i think.

Thank you

Best Regards



Hello Maurizio,

I think you are missing one important point

For example,if you check more carefully the engine versions, which are played during 2004/2005 years

You will noticed that in those years the version were Hydra,Deep Fritz 8,Deep Junior 8...

Currently these engine versions (which are played vs GMs) are rated around 2900 Elo SSDF points (exception Hydra,which is private)
http://ssdf.bosjo.net/list.htm

Note also that even on Quad 2.40GHz,Rybka 4's performance is 3220 Elo

In other words,if the participants were based on only by Houdini/Rybka/Critter/Hydra
Then i would expect to see at least 400 Elo difference (i mean for those years of 2004,2005,2006)

Of course,i have no much information about the speed of all used hardwares,which are played in 2004,2005 years

So i guess,overall Elo performance of the played Engines were around 3000 Elo (due to Hydra's speed hardware advantage in 2004,2005)

Yes...now we are in 2012 and more than 6 years is gone where the Machines are missed to play vs GMs


And its time for reality-no patience to see the duel match:Man vs Machine 2012


Greetings,
Sedat

Last edited by Sedat Canbaz on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:20 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:19 am
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:22 pm
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:25 pm
            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:10 pm
                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:27 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:35 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:45 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:49 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:03 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:27 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Mel Cooper Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:04 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:15 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Mel Cooper Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:23 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:53 pm
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Michael Golub Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:21 pm
            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:45 pm
                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:50 am
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:35 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Thomas Mayer Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:41 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Thomas Mayer Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:47 am
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:30 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:18 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:08 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Carl Bicknell Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:15 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:09 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Carl Bicknell Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:35 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Uri Blass Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:02 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:38 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:10 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:43 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:19 pm
                                                      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:14 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:17 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:58 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:15 pm
                                                      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:42 pm
                                                            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:11 pm
                                                                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:27 pm
                                                                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:20 am
                                                                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:15 am
                                                                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Uri Blass Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:08 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:44 am
                                                                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:16 am
                                                                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:16 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:14 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:37 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:01 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:32 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Dr.Wael Deeb Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:28 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:52 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:20 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:19 pm
Post new topic    TalkChess.com Forum Index -> Computer Chess Club: General Topics

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Enhanced with Moby Threads