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POLL:Man vs Machine ?
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Maurizio Maglio



Joined: 16 Oct 2011
Posts: 766
PostPost subject: Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ?    Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:10 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Don wrote:
MM wrote:

Hello,

2600 is generic, anyway the difference in strenght between a 2600 and a 2800 is huge. If we consider any kind of GM, of course the machines are clearly dominant.



I agree with that. What is interesting to me is not so much who is better but why they are better. What makes the computer stronger at normal human-like time controls?

Part of the answer has to do with the time controls and why humans play better and better with more time. There is still the tactical vs positional play issue and we might now ask if computers generally outplay humans positionally. I think in general they seem to but their dominance is not so clear in this respect. Computers have this extremely solid style where they do not seem to overlook anything and I don't necessarily mean what we call tactics.

Really there is no such thing as tactics, it's a word we made up to mean not overlooking big things, like obvious wins of material. Computers are good at that but they don't overlook little things either - provided they understand them. That's where they are really dominant and they are so good at it that it seems to cover over their inferior positional understanding faults. You cannot tell they are inferior when they calculate so well.



Sure that the difference is huge between 2600 and 2800 Elo

But however,it seems many of the chess friends dont care a lot about the speed of the processors and the strenght of opening books

Just i'd like to mention again that the hardware speed is very important factor

For example,980X @4.33GHz is approx.3 times faster than Quad 2.40GHz:

Code:
Hardware-Processor        Speed      Cores     kN/s
Intel Core i7 980X      @ 4.33 GHz     6      18709
Intel Core 2 Q6600        2.40 GHz     4       6771


*The hardware Elo difference is expecting to be approx.130-150 Elo


Another very important note is that:the power of the opening books

Even exactly on same equal conditions (exception books),we can see huge different Elo standings

I have no much free time to post all my book tournament links,but here is the latest one:
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/scct-super-league/


Hope this helps


Best,
Sedat


Hi Sedat,

yes, i know hardware and opening book gives plus elo.
But basically a huge hardware is devastating against a small hardware. Much less devastating against a superGM.
Why?
Because two engines supported by very different HW make a battle of tactics and the one who has the better HW triumphs almost always.

In matches Engines vs Humans, if the engine has a limited chess knowledge, you can give it a 20 times stronger hardware and that engine will probably keep on missing the correct positional manouevres, because it has a limited sensibility for the positional play and the add of calculation power hardly can compensate it (it depends by the position and the depth of the position anyway).
And this is very important because in match human vs engine, the human being should and must try to drive the game into a positional strategical direction, in which engines have the main difficulties.

So the difference in elo that you showed in your scheme, are obviously right, but they are related to machines vs machines, not to machines vs humans.

Basically: if engine A, with super HW and elo 3500 is 350 elo stronger than engine B, with small HW, and this same engine B has the same elo of Carlsen, we are not allowed to say that engine A is 350 elo stronger than Carlsen, for the reasons i just explained.

As regards the opening book, it is different. The impact of an opening book, if made very well, can make you win a game so i would say that it is very important.

Thank you.

Best Regards
_________________
MM

Last edited by Maurizio Maglio on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Subject Author Date/Time
POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:19 am
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:22 pm
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:25 pm
            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:10 pm
                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:27 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:35 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:45 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:49 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:03 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:27 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Mel Cooper Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:04 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:15 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Mel Cooper Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:23 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:53 pm
      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Michael Golub Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:21 pm
            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:45 pm
                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:50 am
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:35 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Thomas Mayer Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:41 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Thomas Mayer Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:47 am
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:30 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:18 pm
                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:08 pm
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Carl Bicknell Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:15 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:09 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Carl Bicknell Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:35 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Uri Blass Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:02 am
                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:38 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:10 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:43 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:19 pm
                                                      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:14 pm
                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:17 pm
                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:58 pm
                                                Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:15 pm
                                                      Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:42 pm
                                                            Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Don Dailey Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:11 pm
                                                                  Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Maurizio Maglio Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:27 pm
                                                                        Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:20 am
                                                                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:15 am
                                                                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Uri Blass Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:08 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:44 am
                                                                              Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:16 am
                                                                                    Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:16 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:14 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:37 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:01 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:32 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Dr.Wael Deeb Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:28 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Jean ahlbeck Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:52 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:20 am
                                                                                          Re: POLL:Man vs Machine ? Sedat Canbaz Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:19 pm
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