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End-game evaluation
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Evert Glebbeek



Joined: 21 Jan 2011
Posts: 872
Location: NL
PostPost subject: Re: End-game evaluation    Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:50 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
hgm wrote:

Well, you could use the tablebase generator I released last week. Building a 4-men EGT typically takes less than half a minute, so testing pairs of minors for mating potential should be easy. Testing a single piece for mating potential is a sub-second job.

I downloaded it, but didn't do more with it so far than look whether I could compile my own version (since I don't have Windows).

Quote:
The problem with NN is not so much tempo-moves, as well as the inability of the Knight to switch in one move from attacking c1 (so that checking the bare King on b1 would force him to step into the corner) to attacking a1 to perform the checkmate.

Hmm... my thinking was that you'd want to be able to make a waiting move so that the defending king has to yield terrain and walk into the corner. You can always do that in KRK (and KQK, but that's not interesting), KBBK and KBNK, but not in KNNK (except with the king, as you pointed out, but then your own king may be giving up terrain that you need to controlled; the correct statement would have been that I expect you want two pieces that can triangulate). Of course it's always good to have the ability to triangulate in case you need it, without saying that you do need it.
Should be easy to test though whether it makes a difference: just allow the side with the knights to null-move and see whether it can do it. I might try that at some point just for fun.

Quote:
So the real problem is stalemate, and when stalemate would be a win, as in Xiangqi, two Knights would win easily.

Yes, that's true.

Quote:
Any color-alternator would have that problem, but also color-bound simple leapers like Ferz (which is a 'higher-order' color-alternator).

Yes, a Ferz can't do a triangulation (the intersection of it's 1-move attack set and it's 2-move attack set is 0).

Quote:
To force checkmate with that plus a color-bound (2,2) + (3,3) leaper compound (a sub-set of the Bishop!), you have to do it in the corner of opposite color of the latter. Because with (2,2) + (3,3) jumps you can not go from c1 to a1 in 3 moves, like you would have to do in your 'own corner', and neither can the piece cover a1 and c1 at the same time, as would be needed for an edge mate on b1. (Also note the piece can lose a tempo in 5 moves!)

That's an interesting point, and different from what I assume right now in Sjaak. Of course most if that is mostly ad-hoc generalisations from normal chess and similar-enough variants, which can be improved for more general cases. At some point.
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Subject Author Date/Time
End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:44 am
      Re: End-game evaluation Evert Glebbeek Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:02 pm
            Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:20 pm
      Re: End-game evaluation Oliver Uwira Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:59 pm
      Re: End-game evaluation Jon Dart Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:10 pm
            Re: End-game evaluation Jon Dart Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:13 pm
      Re: End-game evaluation Kevin Hearn Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:19 pm
            Re: End-game evaluation Pawel Koziol Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:46 am
      Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:09 am
            Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:00 am
                  Re: End-game evaluation Evert Glebbeek Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:04 pm
                  Re: End-game evaluation Ed Schroder Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:15 pm
            Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:16 am
                  Re: End-game evaluation Michael Hoffmann Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:48 am
                        Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:24 pm
                              Re: End-game evaluation Michael Hoffmann Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:53 pm
                                    Re: End-game evaluation Volker Annuss Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:53 pm
                                    Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:54 pm
                                          Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:29 pm
                                                Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:28 pm
                                                      Re: End-game evaluation Evert Glebbeek Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:33 pm
                                                            Re: End-game evaluation Evert Glebbeek Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:02 pm
                                                                  Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:40 pm
                                                            Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:16 am
                                                                  Re: End-game evaluation Evert Glebbeek Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:50 pm
                                                                        Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:16 pm
                                                                              Re: End-game evaluation Evert Glebbeek Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:52 pm
                                                                                    Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:14 pm
                                                      Re: End-game evaluation Karlo Bala Jr. Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:59 pm
                                                            Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:30 am
                                                                  Re: End-game evaluation Kevin Hearn Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:58 am
                                                                        Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:40 pm
                                                                              Re: End-game evaluation Evert Glebbeek Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:53 pm
      Re: End-game evaluation Mark Lefler Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:08 pm
            Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:09 pm
                  Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:58 pm
                  Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:50 am
                        Re: End-game evaluation H.G.Muller Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:36 pm
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