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Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague...
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Don Dailey



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 4502
PostPost subject: Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague    Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 11:26 pm Reply to topic Reply with quote
tiger wrote:
Don wrote:
tiger wrote:
Don wrote:
I think there was a GPL violation.

This comes from the FAQ from the free software foundation:

Quote:
If you commercially distribute binaries not accompanied with source code, the GPL says you must provide a written offer to distribute the source code later. When users non-commercially redistribute the binaries they received from you, they must pass along a copy of this written offer. This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from you can still receive copies of the source code, along with the written offer.


Is there such a written offer that comes with the distribution?

Also, these "for sale" copies fall under GPL and they must be accompanied by a license. So there is a clearly a GPL violation.

I doubt GPL was designed to allow someone to market a free work by misrepresenting it as private without a GPL license.



Is this really all we are complaining about here?

I like your question because I usually try get the heart of the matter myself and determine what it is that we are complaining about.

In this case, at least 2 questions come to mind.

1. What is it that many of us find so offensive about this?

2. What can we do about it if anything?

I cannot speak for everyone else, but it hurts my sense of justice to see someone taking the work of someone else, profiting and taking credit for it. The profit part is not nearly as offensive as the taking credit part - at least for me.

What can we do about it? Probably not much that "we" can do, but there are steps that Tord can take if that is what he decides.

So I guess the answer to your question, "is this really all we are complaining about here?" is a clear and resounding "maybe." I would like to see Tord and the Stockfish team be given full credit and for there to be full disclosure on the packaging about what is really happening.
Quote:



You mean these guys just have to splash the GPL text somewhere, provide a link to Tord's source code or their own 2 lines changes and we are done?



// Christophe


Actually, yes. I don't know about the Apple issue which is another thing, but the GPL license encourages this. If you licence under GPL you are essentially giving away your rights in matters like this.



I don't think that giving proper credit is what bothers people who are shocked by the practice.

While proper credit should be given, it absolutely does not matter to the customer.

And several people, including Tord, have clearly said that they consider that charging money for Stockfish is "stealing".

Then that is their own fault - they chose the GPL license.

I think you are wrong about giving credit because advertisers love to attach names of real people (or made up people) to products. People DO in fact relate to that. If the inventor or creator is listed on the package people really do take notice and it means more to them that normal product branding. Designer clothes is just one example. Even if the consumer is completely unaware of who the author actually is, it registers - a program by Tord Romstad. And even if it's nonsense and made up people attaching meaning to it.

In the 80's everyone wanted a "Spracklen" chess program. If it had the name "Spraklen" attached you knew it was a good program. (At some point it became a bad thing when their programs fell in stature.)


Quote:


It's not about giving credits.

Your question #1 is:
1. What is it that many of us find so offensive about this?

I think the answer is that some people want proper credit to be given and the GPL terms respected (access to the source code), but this is a convenient way to hide the real motive.

The real motive is that some people on this forum, the author of the copied program included, consider that selling a GPL program is stealing.

If you want to go to the heart of the matter, here is an hypothesis:

The GPL and open-source in general has been glorified and sanctified because the few users who have heard about it do not understand it and associate it with "software that I do not have to pay for".

What most people don't understand is that GPL is not for the software author, it's for the software user. It is designed to impart certain right to the user of the software and of course most people like that. If there is 1 author and a million users of the software, most people are going to like it. The authors are not going to complain because they chose the license.

I don't want to get too philosophical here, but deep down inside I think the system is totally broken with respect to copyright law and patent law and that includes GPL. To make a long story short, the whole concept of trying to protect an "idea" from someone else is ill-conceived and counterproductive. However, I also believe that you have to honor the system and that you don't break the rules just because you don't like them, but you have to live within them. If each person gets to decide which laws to obey and which they think are silly we would have chaos.

Quote:


Because users consider it is always a good thing, some programmers get sucked into it without realizing the consequences. They, too, associate GPL with something that people will not have to pay for. What a generous motive! I'm going to create an outstanding piece of software that every human being on this planet will be able to use, even people who can barely feed their family! My creation will be used in the most devastated regions of Africa, Asia, and even in the poorest suburbs of US megatowns!

I can already see the tears in your eyes.

OK now we wake up. Small entities, for example individual developpers, do not have the resources to enforce a fair use of their GPLed work.

And, anyway, the GPL explicitely allows anyone to sell GPLed work. Oops.

As a result, open source software is routinely exploited to make money and create commercial, closed programs.

GnuChess, Fruit, Crafty, Stockfish... and others.

All of these programs have been, are, and will be used to make unmerited money. It has been the case with GnuChess for the last 20 years. It has been the case with Fruit (combined with Crafty apparently) since 2005. It's already the case with Stockfish.

The open-sourcing of strong chess engines leads to the following:
- the perceived value of years of hard work is lowered
- there is less incentive to produce original work and more incentive to reproduce or even copy what is already out there
- people with no real commitment to the field can make easy money from it. As they have done no investment at all, they can sell as low as they want, effectively preventing anybody else to take the risk to further invest in research

I find it ridiculous to publish an open source program and come back later complaining that other people are making money from it.

It was bound to happen.

The heart of the problem is that it is irresponsible to publish a strong open source chess program if you do not have the time, resources and energy available to enforce a fair use of it.

As far as I can tell, only Crafty can be considered to have been relatively well protected from abuse, because of the reputation and social network surrounding its author.

// Christophe


Crafty has been heavily abused over the years. The only thing protecting it now is that it's not that close to the top so nobody cares.

I agree with just about everything you are saying. A lot of people sing the praises of GPL software but only for what is in it for them. They don't always truly respect the intent of it as we can see here.
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Subject Author Date/Time
Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague... Julien MARCEL Sat May 28, 2011 12:11 pm
      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Martin Sedlak Sat May 28, 2011 12:53 pm
            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Tord Romstad Sat May 28, 2011 2:28 pm
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Bryan Whitby Sat May 28, 2011 3:08 pm
                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 5:21 am
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 6:16 am
                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Tord Romstad Sun May 29, 2011 7:02 am
                              Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 8:11 am
                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Tord Romstad Sun May 29, 2011 9:45 am
                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 6:59 pm
                                                Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Evert Glebbeek Sun May 29, 2011 9:08 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 9:30 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Sven Schüle Sun May 29, 2011 10:32 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 10:49 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sun May 29, 2011 10:53 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 11:01 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sun May 29, 2011 11:03 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 11:57 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Alex Brown Mon May 30, 2011 2:01 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Mon May 30, 2011 4:57 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Alex Brown Mon May 30, 2011 9:32 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Eelco de Groot Mon May 30, 2011 11:04 am
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague H.G.Muller Tue May 31, 2011 2:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Miguel A. Ballicora Tue May 31, 2011 2:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Michel Van den Bergh Tue May 31, 2011 2:51 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Eelco de Groot Tue May 31, 2011 3:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Tue May 31, 2011 6:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Eelco de Groot Tue May 31, 2011 7:24 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:19 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:00 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:23 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:44 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:04 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:06 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Bigler Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:14 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Ted Wong Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:17 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Gabriel LEPERLIER Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:40 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:48 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:10 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:34 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:49 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Martin Sedlak Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:27 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steven Atkinson Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:03 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:02 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Ron Langeveld Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:26 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:09 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steven Atkinson Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:40 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:50 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steven Atkinson Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:59 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:07 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steven Atkinson Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:04 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:09 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steven Atkinson Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Ronald de Man Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:22 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:28 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Ronald de Man Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:53 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Darrel Briley Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Tue May 31, 2011 6:01 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague H.G.Muller Tue May 31, 2011 6:05 pm
                              Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Jon Dart Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:05 pm
                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:15 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Jon Dart Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:30 pm
                                                Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:33 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Jon Dart Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:43 pm
                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:48 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Jon Dart Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:55 pm
                                                Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Steve Maughan Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:08 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Jon Dart Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:30 pm
                                                            Apps with Stockfish engine Stefan Brettschneider Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:55 am
                                                                  Re: Apps with Stockfish engine Julien MARCEL Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:01 am
                                                                        Re: Apps with Stockfish engine Stefan Brettschneider Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:06 am
                              Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Bryan Whitby Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:03 am
                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague john dalhem Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:43 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:42 am
                                                Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:48 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Martin Sedlak Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:22 am
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Stefan Brettschneider Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:38 am
                                                            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague John Krush Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:24 am
                                                                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:56 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Krzych Cybulsky Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:02 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Krzych Cybulsky Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:09 pm
                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Greg Simpson Sun May 29, 2011 9:11 pm
            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Joshua Shriver Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:42 am
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Martin Sedlak Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:21 am
      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague F. Bluemers Sat May 28, 2011 1:01 pm
            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat May 28, 2011 1:05 pm
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Andres Valverde Sat May 28, 2011 1:45 pm
                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sat May 28, 2011 1:53 pm
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague F. Bluemers Sat May 28, 2011 2:07 pm
      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Don Dailey Sat May 28, 2011 5:21 pm
            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Marco Costalba Sat May 28, 2011 5:46 pm
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 5:23 am
                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Marco Costalba Sun May 29, 2011 6:46 am
                              Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 7:07 am
                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Marco Costalba Sun May 29, 2011 7:49 am
                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 8:13 am
                                                Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Gian-Carlo Pascutto Sun May 29, 2011 9:25 am
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sun May 29, 2011 9:39 am
                                                            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Alfonso Turri Mon May 30, 2011 10:36 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Alfonso Turri Mon May 30, 2011 10:47 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Mike Scheidl Sun May 29, 2011 9:56 am
                                                            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 6:47 pm
                                                Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Tord Romstad Sun May 29, 2011 9:57 am
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Sven Schüle Sun May 29, 2011 11:46 am
                                                            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 7:03 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Don Dailey Sun May 29, 2011 12:16 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Julien MARCEL Sun May 29, 2011 12:28 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Don Dailey Sun May 29, 2011 6:05 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 7:21 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Gian-Carlo Pascutto Mon May 30, 2011 3:44 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Sven Schüle Mon May 30, 2011 4:37 pm
                                                                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Gian-Carlo Pascutto Mon May 30, 2011 10:47 pm
                                                                                    Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Don Dailey Mon May 30, 2011 5:44 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 7:07 pm
                                                                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Don Dailey Sun May 29, 2011 8:56 pm
                                                                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 10:42 pm
                                                                              Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Don Dailey Sun May 29, 2011 11:26 pm
                                                            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Greg Simpson Sun May 29, 2011 9:28 pm
                                                      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 7:00 pm
                                          Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Bryan Whitby Sun May 29, 2011 8:17 am
                                                Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 8:26 am
                              Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague H.G.Muller Mon May 30, 2011 6:21 pm
      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Sean Evans Sat May 28, 2011 8:29 pm
            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Alex Brown Sat May 28, 2011 9:34 pm
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Don Dailey Sat May 28, 2011 9:58 pm
                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 7:21 am
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 5:43 am
      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Roman Hartmann Sun May 29, 2011 7:04 am
            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 8:18 am
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Sven Schüle Sun May 29, 2011 11:40 am
                        Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Christophe Théron Sun May 29, 2011 7:25 pm
      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Krzych Cybulsky Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:12 pm
            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague H.G.Muller Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:22 pm
            Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague H.G.Muller Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:23 pm
                  Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Asim Pereira Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:46 am
      Re: Stockfish clones in the AppStore: it's becoming a plague Jianzhao Zhu Thu May 23, 2013 9:13 am
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