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My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich
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Sven Schüle



Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3445
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPost subject: Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich    Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:08 am Reply to topic Reply with quote

Alexander Schmidt wrote:
Well if this accusation is allowed in the public forum, I attach importance to post some defending details also in public. I know it is all discussed, no need to discuss it again. Move it to EOF if you like, but take the initial accusation with it.

Here are some details:

I am always talking about the differences between Ippolit and Rybka, I want to show some details.

Maybe my work encourages someone to proof me wrong. I would be happy about a critical factual discussion. Very Happy

This is not meant as an evidence that Ippolit is no clone of Rybka, but it shows that the engines are different enough to ask for a proof if someone says it's a clone.

After all I am sure Ippolit is NOT based on a decompiled Rybka. In another thread I showed why I think the roots are Kaissa from Vladimir Yelin. BTW it would be a hard challange to decompile Rybka 3, translate the decompiled version to something understandable, and improve the engine along the way by 100 ELO in a half year.

I can not exclude the possibility that parts of Rybka are inside Ippolit. I am thinking about Rybkas so called tables. But they are also in Strelka, it should be easy for an expert to find them in Ippolit. Maybe something else, but who can be sure it is "stolen"? Maybe it is only the idea that was taken, since Strelka many secrets of Rybka are public.

I do consider the theory that the initial working code base of Ippolit was another engine, like Kaissa, as not bad. Indeed I think it is quite likely, taking into account the many differences that have been found between Ippolit and R3, that parts of the Rybka search and/or evaluation might have been incorporated into a different working code base via disassembling, with several adaptations and also many changes of course. I mentioned that possibility in the past already but did not get too much feedback at that time. What would make this really doable IMO is the fact that Ippolit and R3 have (according to the "BB" paper) a very similar, although not identical, board representation based on rotated bitboards.

Alexander Schmidt wrote:

But now to the promised facts Smile
<details omitted here>

You have already posted that part in the past, nothing new so far. I recall that I replied to it, but never mind, here is my reply again from my current viewpoint:

I think that in the Ippo* case "black box" tests like yours are not sufficient to derive anything from it, since Ippo* has very likely different roots, so the question is much more complex than just "Is Y a clone of X or not?", like in the former clone cases you cited. No doubt: the UCI interface is most probably very different from R3, and so is most probably the move generator. But that does not say where the major components of a chess engine X, search and evaluation, come from and whether resp. how much they are based on another engine Y. Especially you simply can't judge about differences or similarities of the search just by running black box tests and looking at the move choices and/or PVs. We discussed exactly that a while ago, do you remember? A huge number of things influences the result of the search, and even with two identical search implementation you can get very different results just if any of these factors are slightly different.

The only thing that helps, if a comparison of C source code is not possible [at the moment], is the approach of "BB" who really seems to have done a comparison on assembler code level. I'll comment on that later on.

Sven
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My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:52 am
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich gerold daniels Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:12 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:18 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:27 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:54 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Steve B Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:49 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:56 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ben Stoker Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:47 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:50 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:54 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:56 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:01 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:03 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:07 pm
                                                Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ben Stoker Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:24 pm
                                                      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:00 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Uri Blass Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:38 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:44 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:58 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Rolf Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:43 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:01 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Highendman Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:25 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:36 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:44 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:30 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:39 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:44 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:45 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Graham Banks Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:48 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:45 am
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:51 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:58 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ben Stoker Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:50 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Eastendboy Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:18 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich clare marie benedicto Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:08 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Zach Wegner Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:01 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich K I Hyams Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:16 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:41 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Charles Daniel Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:32 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich K I Hyams Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:41 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:15 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Tom Giampietro Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:24 am
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:22 am
                                                Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:58 am
                                                      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich clare marie benedicto Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:52 pm
                                                            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich S.Taylor Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:00 pm
                                                                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich kostas oreopoulos Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:26 pm
                                                                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dann Corbit Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:30 pm
                                                                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:30 pm
                                                                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich kostas oreopoulos Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:56 pm
                                                                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:35 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:17 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:09 am
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:46 pm
                                                Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:05 pm
                                                      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:18 pm
                                                            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:31 pm
                                                            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Zach Wegner Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:51 pm
                                                                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dann Corbit Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:23 pm
                                                                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Rolf Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:16 pm
                                                                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ben Stoker Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:23 pm
                                                                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Peter C Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:00 pm
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Christopher Conkie Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 pm
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Milos Stanisavljevic Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Christopher Conkie Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:26 am
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:01 am
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Christopher Conkie Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:28 am
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Peter C Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:53 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ryan Benitez Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:47 am
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Rolf Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Djordje Vidanovic Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:05 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:40 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:47 am
      Some personal attacks removed Graham Banks Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:43 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:52 am
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:08 am
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Krzych Cybulsky Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:33 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:16 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Steve B Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:42 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:00 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Steve B Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:06 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:33 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:33 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Steve B Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:14 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:32 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ingo Bauer Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:43 pm
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