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My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich
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Tom Giampietro



Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 736

PostPost subject: Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich    Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:24 am Reply to topic Reply with quote

bob wrote:
K I Hyams wrote:
Sven Schüle wrote:
K I Hyams wrote:
Zach Wegner wrote:
Vasik Rajlich wrote:

(5) It seems to be guesswork. I'd estimate that 40% of the points are wrong, 40% are standard chess/computer chess concepts, and 20% are direct Fruit influence on Rybka.


Sigh... That's the same old Vasik nonsense we are used to. It's quite easy for him to say something is wrong, but he has yet to demonstrate anything proving it. I talked to him about my webpage before posting it, and the only example he could come up with of something that was wrong was the PSTs, which is one of the most clear-cut pieces of evidence.

Yes, I wondered whether you would pick up on that point. If he has given Sven permission to publish his email, it would appear that he is willing to publicly cast aspersions on your competence and indirectly that of Bob Hyatt without providing any evidence.

I cannot see how the permission to publish emails, based on my question whether I may do so, should by any means be related to competence of other people, even more to aspersions about that. Appears very far-fetched to me.

Sven

I'd estimate that 40% of the points are wrong”, That implies that Zach’s analysis is riddled with mistakes.
40% are standard chess/computer chess concepts”. That implies that Zach is unable to recognise standard computer chess concepts when they are staring him in the face..

In other words, he is saying that at least 80% of Zach’s work is either inaccurate or incompetent. That sounds to me to be a serious slur on Zach’s ability. He has made those slurs without providing a shred of evidence and he has allowed you to publish them in that form.

If I were to make such serious aspersions on the competence of a colleague, I would not dream of allowing them to go public without providing concrete examples. It appears that Vas Rajlich does not adhere to that standard.


A couple of points.

1. Allowing the email to be posted is simply "a way of saying something without _really_ saying something, particularly without saying something with concrete supporting evidence." So it is just a way to side-step the issue, once again.

2. I personally believe that he knows that we know, and we know that he knows that we know. And that there is no possible refutation, so avoiding the topic and hoping it eventually blows over is the best alternative strategy to confronting it head on.

So don't hold your breath waiting on evidence. This "I don't have time" is a crock. Years ago Berliner accused me of cheating at the 1986 WCCC event that we won. I helped Levy, Newborn, Marsland, and Thompson evaluate the claim by providing whatever data they asked for. They wanted to run certain moves thru the version of Cray Blitz we used in that game. I made arrangements for Cray time (dedicated SMP crays are not exactly easy to come by) and had Cray restore the version from that date from their backups and had them confirm with Levy that they did daily backups and that there was no possible way anyone could have somehow created a faked version and put it into their backup system. I took Berliner's claims, point by point, and contacted other programs for the 3-4 moves he pointed out "would _never_ be played by a computer." I had the programmers involved then send sample output from _their_ program to Levy (Ken Thompson started the ball rolling since he was involved and immediately tested the positions on Belle and found it would play the same moves.) I spent a lot of time. In 1986, during my _first_ year of Ph.D. studies, while I was preparing for the Level I Ph.D. exam given Jan of 1997 (the WCCC was Summer of 86, the cheating claim surfaced around October. Yet I _still_ found the time to defend our hard work (we had 3 of us working on this program). Even with Level I exam preparation in full swing.

So I don't buy this "no time at the moment." One will make time, _if_ one actually has a way of refuting the claim, which we did to _everybody_'s satisfaction. The final letter from Levy took Berliner's claim, point by point, and directly refuted each and every one with hard evidence. Why can't we get that here? Perhaps there is no hard evidence to refute the claim? So why does everyone keep waiting for something that is not going to come (This is about the fruit/rybka point). And then what about the Rybka/IP* issue? One has to ask "why??" And there are not many _reasonable_ possible explanations, if you are fair in trying to answer that "Why?"

So, the situation "is what it is, and it isn't going to change."

Not much point in keeping the hope alive.


Dr. Hyatt, we have debated in the recent past (with me coming from the non-technical side of things) BUT I will say that I completely agree with you here! I do not buy the "I don't have time for it", excuse either.

If Vas had some mysterious personal reasons for not wanting to present evidence, I would give benefit of the doubt on that. BUT "I don't have time" is not a valid excuse from Vas in any way shape or form.
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My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:52 am
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich gerold daniels Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:12 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:18 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:27 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:54 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Steve B Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:49 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dr.Wael Deeb Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:56 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ben Stoker Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:47 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:50 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:54 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:56 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:01 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:03 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:07 pm
                                                Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ben Stoker Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:24 pm
                                                      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:00 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Uri Blass Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:38 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:44 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:58 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Rolf Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:43 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:01 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Highendman Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:25 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:36 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:44 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:30 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:39 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:44 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:45 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Graham Banks Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:48 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:45 am
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:51 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:58 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ben Stoker Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:50 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Eastendboy Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:18 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich clare marie benedicto Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:08 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Zach Wegner Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:01 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich K I Hyams Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:16 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:41 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Charles Daniel Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:32 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich K I Hyams Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:41 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:15 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Tom Giampietro Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:24 am
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:22 am
                                                Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:58 am
                                                      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich clare marie benedicto Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:52 pm
                                                            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich S.Taylor Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:00 pm
                                                                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich kostas oreopoulos Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:26 pm
                                                                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dann Corbit Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:30 pm
                                                                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:30 pm
                                                                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich kostas oreopoulos Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:56 pm
                                                                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Albert Silver Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:35 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:17 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:09 am
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:46 pm
                                                Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:05 pm
                                                      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:18 pm
                                                            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:31 pm
                                                            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Zach Wegner Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:51 pm
                                                                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Dann Corbit Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:23 pm
                                                                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Rolf Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:16 pm
                                                                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ben Stoker Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:23 pm
                                                                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Peter C Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:00 pm
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Harvey Williamson Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Christopher Conkie Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 pm
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Milos Stanisavljevic Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:59 pm
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Christopher Conkie Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:26 am
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Milos Stanisavljevic Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:01 am
                                                                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Christopher Conkie Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:28 am
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Peter C Sun Jun 13, 2010 11:53 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ryan Benitez Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:47 am
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Rolf Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Djordje Vidanovic Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:05 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:40 pm
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:47 am
      Some personal attacks removed Graham Banks Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:43 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:52 am
            Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Sven Schüle Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:08 am
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Krzych Cybulsky Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:33 pm
                  Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:16 pm
                        Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Steve B Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:42 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:00 pm
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                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Roger Brown Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:33 pm
                              Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Alexander Schmidt Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:33 pm
                                    Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Steve B Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:14 pm
                                          Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Robert Hyatt Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:32 pm
      Re: My recent correspondence with Vasik Rajlich Ingo Bauer Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:43 pm
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