Why not let Norman return to chess community

[Robert Flesher]

Since Norman has made great contribution to chess, I think it's time to let him return to our community.

Contribution to chess has nothing to do with banning. He was banned for violating the charter.

To be more precise, he kept saying Rybka was a clone but provided no proof.

You may notice that many here accused Ippolit and co. to be a clone without providing a proof. I don't remember any of them has been banned...

A damned untruth/halsehood. He wasnt banned for saying this but because he sold his several clones to the people and that is a crime. Therefore it's alsi in itself dirty to argue that he ported something to Windows and that were a fantastic contribution. This is similar (although one cannot compare the two cases!) to a murderer Bloodgood who spent a life sentence in jail and became a 1.g4 expert. IMO we cant ignore true crimes alone for the integrity of our youth. But honestly I would prefer Bloodgood as a chess expert over Kranium, who BTW is also playing around with many pseudos, and he is, above all, betraying chess fans with his clones. While Bloodgood didnt murder a chessplayer. So that one could argue that his chess dedication had absolutely nothing to do with chess! Other than with Kranium who abused chess fans themselves. That is why I see him a lot more dangerous than a murderer who sits forever in jail.

I agree with what you are saying, however, it never ceases to amaze me how wound up people become over issues that do not concern them. There will always be people to seek to gain and exploit others, this is the world we live in. By responding to threads that support accused theft and piracy, this only serves to feed the evil machine with attention. Again, I am more and more shocked at how this forum has fallen into stupid ethical chats over right and wrong. Maybe we need a third forum for political, ethical, and emotional rants ?
AKA ...."Chess Thinkers Forum"

[Matthias Gemuh]

... twisted logic is unacceptable.

Are you casting doubts on some chess engine ?

[slobo]

"Do you at least know who Norm is, the cloner archbishop and seller of such illegal drogues. Note, he stole money from the people because his clones should not be paid or sold at all" (sorry but i haven't got the hang of this thread business yet).

well, maybe this man is a crook (as you say) and maybe he isnt. but as you seem to have the right to call him a crook he should have the right to defend himself, crook or not. even the most vile murderers are entitled to a trial, that is how things are done in the free world, and as long as ppl have the right to accuse the accused should have the right to defend themselves. so the reasons you give for not allowing him a voice, viz. that he is a crook is precisely the reason why he should be able to. and genarrly i like to make my own up and not have it made up for me by those who have already made theirs. you think him a crook, very good, but i like to see the facts for myself first and not blindly accept what you, or anyone else (including norman) teels me.

You misunderstood. That Norm sold always new clones is not to be proven to every new member. No new member is allowed to call it an unproven allegation until he, the newbie, has not been shown the facts of the case. And until that moment Norm should be innocent.

This sort of twisted logic is unacceptable. The facts are known to experts here and not even I like many have not these facts.

But therefore in recursive logic Norm cannot become innocent again. Because if he could, he would remain innocent for the rest of his life. Proof: I have many grandmothers who never have seen the facts about Norm, so that it's impossible to accuse Norm of any wrongdoings.

1. Norman did not kill anyone.
2. He sold a few examples of his clone, but he gave all that money back when accusations arose.
3. He was pnished so far by 7 months banning after starting another clone that he offered for free.

Now tell me: when Vas will give back a part of his money, corresponding to the copied code of Fruit engine?

There are already a lot of proves about his cloning activities.

[slobo]

any restrictions on freedom of speech are against western values and usually the sign of totalitarian dictators. what is wrong with simply letting ppl make up their own minds? if someone has something to say that is clearly wrong im sure most ppl will see it as such, and of course others have always got the right to reply. usually limits are impossed on such freedoms when those enforcing said restrictions are fearful of what might be said...why?? on principle any restrictions are bad and return us back to the dark ages.

Do you at least know who Norm is, the cloner archbishop and seller of such illegal drogues. Note, he stole money from the people because his clones should not be paid or sold at all.

This is simply a defamation that should not be tolerated by the mods.
All that money had been given back to the customers when accusations of cloning arose.

Vas did not do the same so far.

[Rolf]

Since Norman has made great contribution to chess, I think it's time to let him return to our community.

Contribution to chess has nothing to do with banning. He was banned for violating the charter.

To be more precise, he kept saying Rybka was a clone but provided no proof.

You may notice that many here accused Ippolit and co. to be a clone without providing a proof. I don't remember any of them has been banned...

A damned untruth/halsehood. He wasnt banned for saying this but because he sold his several clones to the people and that is a crime. Therefore it's alsi in itself dirty to argue that he ported something to Windows and that were a fantastic contribution. This is similar (although one cannot compare the two cases!) to a murderer Bloodgood who spent a life sentence in jail and became a 1.g4 expert. IMO we cant ignore true crimes alone for the integrity of our youth. But honestly I would prefer Bloodgood as a chess expert over Kranium, who BTW is also playing around with many pseudos, and he is, above all, betraying chess fans with his clones. While Bloodgood didnt murder a chessplayer. So that one could argue that his chess dedication had absolutely nothing to do with chess! Other than with Kranium who abused chess fans themselves. That is why I see him a lot more dangerous than a murderer who sits forever in jail.

I agree with what you are saying, however, it never ceases to amaze me how wound up people become over issues that do not concern them. There will always be people to seek to gain and exploit others, this is the world we live in. By responding to threads that support accused theft and piracy, this only serves to feed the evil machine with attention. Again, I am more and more shocked at how this forum has fallen into stupid ethical chats over right and wrong. Maybe we need a third forum for political, ethical, and emotional rants ?
AKA ...."Chess Thinkers Forum"

I agree with you that such a message with a petition that Norm should be invited back because he had contributed so much - belongs into CTF but NOT CCC. Or should belong into Help,Suggestion subforum.

But then I would disagree. Simply because the logical weakness has affected too many real experts too. The reasons are different in each person but the main argument boils down to this one. we should judge computerchess as a field with old and hopefully always new contributions for the programming of new features and whole engines. So, as sort of engineering without ethical questions at all. If you want to build a bridge Earth-Moon and it is possible then we should do it, we shouldnt question this with too many doubts. Another would be the question of crimes. What does it interest the community if a Wch butcher was a serial murderer who dismantled his victims like cattle? What counts is his talent to work with a knife.

You seem to think that all this is belonging into CTF as a freaky monster show. But here in CCC we have the absolutely sane and cool logical stuff. I disagree because how we could alienate clones and their gamblers if we would only talk about code bits? I think the solution is easy. We already have the programmer's subforum where even a Norm could participate on topic. But in any other forum he cant because that would mean we would tolerate his crimes. Well crimes in our scene and when you look at the commited fraud by selling clones.

So, if a membership could be restricted on such a subforum, also Norm could participate. IF he reduced himself on code questions and wouldnt mention his philosophical reasons to clone stuff. Which is in fact what he did here in the General Forum as a member.

I agree with many who argue that we shouldnt censor the topic of cloning as such. Therefore I would create another subforum exclusively for cloner questions. There nobody should write his considerations why clones shouldnt exist. The problem would be if the host can risk to host such a support forum in favor of clones and cloners. But I would argue that having a public (or private?) forum about it would help many new members to understand what this is all about. Without censorship. Because now we have a difficult situation where ethical aspects overrule computerchess internal questions.

[Steve B]

Since Norman has made great contribution to chess, I think it's time to let him return to our community.

Contribution to chess has nothing to do with banning. He was banned for violating the charter.

To be more precise, he kept saying Rybka was a clone but provided no proof.

You may notice that many here accused Ippolit and co. to be a clone without providing a proof. I don't remember any of them has been banned...

A damned untruth/halsehood. He wasnt banned for saying this but because he sold his several clones to the people and that is a crime. Therefore it's alsi in itself dirty to argue that he ported something to Windows and that were a fantastic contribution. This is similar (although one cannot compare the two cases!) to a murderer Bloodgood who spent a life sentence in jail and became a 1.g4 expert. IMO we cant ignore true crimes alone for the integrity of our youth. But honestly I would prefer Bloodgood as a chess expert over Kranium, who BTW is also playing around with many pseudos, and he is, above all, betraying chess fans with his clones. While Bloodgood didnt murder a chessplayer. So that one could argue that his chess dedication had absolutely nothing to do with chess! Other than with Kranium who abused chess fans themselves. That is why I see him a lot more dangerous than a murderer who sits forever in jail.

I agree with what you are saying, however, it never ceases to amaze me how wound up people become over issues that do not concern them. There will always be people to seek to gain and exploit others, this is the world we live in. By responding to threads that support accused theft and piracy, this only serves to feed the evil machine with attention. Again, I am more and more shocked at how this forum has fallen into stupid ethical chats over right and wrong. Maybe we need a third forum for political, ethical, and emotional rants ?
AKA ...."Chess Thinkers Forum"

I agree with you that such a message with a petition that Norm should be invited back because he had contributed so much - belongs into CTF but NOT CCC. Or should belong into Help,Suggestion subforum.

But then I would disagree. Simply because the logical weakness has affected too many real experts too. The reasons are different in each person but the main argument boils down to this one. we should judge computerchess as a field with old and hopefully always new contributions for the programming of new features and whole engines. So, as sort of engineering without ethical questions at all. If you want to build a bridge Earth-Moon and it is possible then we should do it, we shouldnt question this with too many doubts. Another would be the question of crimes. What does it interest the community if a Wch butcher was a serial murderer who dismantled his victims like cattle? What counts is his talent to work with a knife.

You seem to think that all this is belonging into CTF as a freaky monster show. But here in CCC we have the absolutely sane and cool logical stuff. I disagree because how we could alienate clones and their gamblers if we would only talk about code bits? I think the solution is easy. We already have the programmer's subforum where even a Norm could participate on topic. But in any other forum he cant because that would mean we would tolerate his crimes. Well crimes in our scene and when you look at the commited fraud by selling clones.

So, if a membership could be restricted on such a subforum, also Norm could participate. IF he reduced himself on code questions and wouldnt mention his philosophical reasons to clone stuff. Which is in fact what he did here in the General Forum as a member.

I agree with many who argue that we shouldnt censor the topic of cloning as such. Therefore I would create another subforum exclusively for cloner questions. There nobody should write his considerations why clones shouldnt exist. The problem would be if the host can risk to host such a support forum in favor of clones and cloners. But I would argue that having a public (or private?) forum about it would help many new members to understand what this is all about. Without censorship. Because now we have a difficult situation where ethical aspects overrule computerchess internal questions.

Rolf
i have sent you a PM
Steve

[mariaclara]

psssssssssssst. keep it quiet. don't tell anyone bout it.

there's a secret forum here on talkchess.

CTF

(where they can talk about any topic they want.
yep. clowns - errrrrrrr -> about clones too)

[Steve B]

psssssssssssst. keep it quiet. don't tell anyone bout it.

there's a secret forum here on talkchess.

CTF

(where they can talk about any topic they want.
yep. clowns - errrrrrrr -> about clones too)

nope no secret
just wanted to expain to Rolf why his post in the Nominee thread was removed
i sent him the PM awhile ago and he did not read it even though he posted here several times thereafter

Steve

[Rolf]

Rolf
i have sent you a PM
Steve

Thanks, Steve. I expected that right valid for nominees.
BTW thanks again for the time you spent on the job. Great role model you are.

[Rolf]

psssssssssssst. keep it quiet. don't tell anyone bout it.

there's a secret forum here on talkchess.

CTF

(where they can talk about any topic they want.
yep. clowns - errrrrrrr -> about clones too)

nope no secret
just wanted to expain to Rolf why his post in the Nominee thread was removed
i sent him the PM awhile ago and he did not read it even though he posted here several times thereafter

Steve

Correct. Reason is I act like the programmers. I create a message, give it to the world and then do never care if it's deleted or whatever, raped or what. Therefore I wasnt suspicious in any thinkable way. I signed here to the rule that everything could happen. Below the importance of Haiti.