Is any engine able to find this:
[D]r4r1k/ppq4p/2n1bppP/2P1p3/2B2n2/1N3Q2/PBP2PP1/3RR1K1 w - -
[Event "Active"]
[Site "Barcelona (Spain)"]
[Round ""]
[White "Rahal Michael (ENG)"]
[Black "Cuartas Jaime Alexander (COL)"]
[Result ""]
[Eco ""]
[Annotator ""]
[Source ""]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4r1k/ppq4p/2n1bppP/2P1p3/2B2n2/1N3Q2/PBP2PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
1.Qxf4 exf4 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 fxe5 4.Rd7 Qb8 5.Nd4 Qe8 6.Nf3
Rf5 7.Rd5 Rd8 8.Rxe5 Rxe5 9.Bxe5+ Qxe5 10.Nxe5 *
Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
Very difficult? Maybe. But you can see the smoke there. It invites looking into if you reach this position in a tournament game.
It's a little more difficult to convince yourself that it will work all the way, and to be absolutely clear about it before giving up the queen. But a normal player should certainly see the first few moves and get deeply engrossed in it.
It's a little more difficult to convince yourself that it will work all the way, and to be absolutely clear about it before giving up the queen. But a normal player should certainly see the first few moves and get deeply engrossed in it.
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Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
Since this is a cc forum the original poster meant
*very difficult for computers*
At least glaurung didn't find 1. Qf4 whithin 5 sec.
kind regards
Bernhard
*very difficult for computers*
At least glaurung didn't find 1. Qf4 whithin 5 sec.
kind regards
Bernhard
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- Full name: H G Muller
Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
How do you know the move is any good?
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Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
[D]r4r1k/ppq4p/2n1bppP/2P1p3/2B2n2/1N3Q2/PBP2PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 0 1
Analysis by Zappa Mexico II:
1.Bxe6 Nxe6 2.Rd6 Qf7 3.Red1 Rae8 4.c4 Nf4 5.Bc1 Ne6 6.Bb2
=/+ (-0.47) Depth: 7/24 00:00:01 157kN
= (0.00) Depth: 18/53 00:06:15 261mN
1.Qxf4 exf4 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 b5 4.Be6 Rae8 5.Rd7 Qc8 6.Rd6 Qc7 7.Re4 Rd8 8.Rxd8 Qxd8 9.Bd4 Qc7 10.Bd5 Qd7
+- (2.62) Depth: 18/55 00:18:01 725mN
+- (2.62) Depth: 19/55 00:22:49 914mN
(Soszynski, 29.05.2008)
Analysis by Zappa Mexico II:
1.Bxe6 Nxe6 2.Rd6 Qf7 3.Red1 Rae8 4.c4 Nf4 5.Bc1 Ne6 6.Bb2
=/+ (-0.47) Depth: 7/24 00:00:01 157kN
= (0.00) Depth: 18/53 00:06:15 261mN
1.Qxf4 exf4 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 b5 4.Be6 Rae8 5.Rd7 Qc8 6.Rd6 Qc7 7.Re4 Rd8 8.Rxd8 Qxd8 9.Bd4 Qc7 10.Bd5 Qd7
+- (2.62) Depth: 18/55 00:18:01 725mN
+- (2.62) Depth: 19/55 00:22:49 914mN
(Soszynski, 29.05.2008)
Marek Soszynski
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Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
I think it is somewhere on the edge of findability. A longe forced variation, if only we had a better means of weeding out the nonsensical stuff. In the words of Larry about Knight versus Bad Bishop: "I feel we are missing something here." The move 1.Qxf4 will be played if the score were to rise above -0.80 which is the evaluation for 1.Bxe6 up to about plydepth 15, but after 1.Qxf4 exf4 you still need about 18 plies to get -0.80 and twenty plies to see a really good score.hgm wrote:How do you know the move is any good?
But the point is, many of the moves make no sense at all and fall to -8 Surely there must be a way to exploit this!
CPU0: AuthenticAMD x86 Family 15 Model 31 Stepping 0 2009 MHz
GUI: Tablebases with 0 pieces found! [Cache: 4 MB + internal 0.00 MB]
GUI: Shredderbases with 0 pieces found (0 MB)
Engine: Ancalagon 2.0 Beta 002 Build 18 29-05-2008 13:29h4 (256 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Eelco de Groot
After 1.Qxf4 exf4
[D]r4r1k/ppq4p/2n1bppP/2P5/2B2p2/1N6/PBP2PP1/3RR1K1 w - -
17 2:29 -0.98 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 fxe5 4.Rd7 Qb8 5.Na5 Qe8 6.Nxb7 Rf6 7.Rg7 Qb8 8.c6 Qc8 9.Rg8+ Qxg8 10.Bxg8 Kxg8 11.Na5 Re8 12.Kh2 (83.714.828) 560
17 2:29 -3.62 2.Bxe6 Rad8 3.Rxd8 Qxd8 4.Bc4 Qd7 5.Nd2 Nd4 6.Re4 Nf5 7.Re6 Qd8 8.Ne4 Qd1+ 9.Bf1 Qxc2 10.Bxf6+ Kg8 11.a3 Nxh6 (83.714.828) 560
17 2:29 -8.07 2.Bf1 Rad8 3.Rxd8 Nxd8 4.Ba3 Kg8 5.c6 Qxc6 6.Bxf8 Kxf8 7.Nd4 Qd5 8.Nxe6+ Nxe6 9.a3 Ke7 10.Bd3 Qa2 11.Be4 Qb2 (83.714.828) 560
___________________________________________________________
18 6:09 -0.82 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 fxe5 4.Rd7 Qb8 5.Na5 Qe8 6.Nxb7 Rf6 7.Rg7 Qb8 8.c6 a5 9.Bd5 Rf5 10.Ba3 Qa7 11.Rd7 (209.304.578) 567
18 6:09 -3.33 2.Bxe6 Rae8 3.Bc3 Rd8 4.Rxd8 Qxd8 5.Bc4 f3 6.Nd2 Nd4 7.Re4 Ne2+ 8.Bxe2 fxe2 9.Rxe2 Kg8 10.Ne4 Qd5 11.Re1 Qf5 12.Kf1 Qf4 (209.304.578) 567
18 6:09 -8.11 2.Bf1 Rad8 3.Rxd8 Nxd8 4.Ba3 Kg8 5.c6 Qxc6 6.Bxf8 Kxf8 7.Rd1 Ke7 8.Nd4 Qc5 9.Nxe6 Nxe6 10.Bd3 Qd5 11.c4 Qe5 12.Bc2 (209.304.578) 567
___________________________________________________________
19 13:20 +0.50 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 fxe5 4.Rd7 Qb8 5.Na5 Qe8 6.Nxb7 Rf6 7.Rd5 Qa4 8.Bxe5 Qxc4 9.Bxf6+ Kg8 10.Rd7 Qe6 11.Rg7+ Kf8 12.Be7+ Qxe7 13.Rxe7 Kxe7 14.Nd6 (451.802.924) 564
19 13:20 -3.07 2.Bxe6 Rae8 3.Bc3 Ne5 4.Bxe5 fxe5 5.Rd7 Qc6 6.Rd6 Qa4 7.Bd7 Qb4 8.c3 Qxc3 9.Rc1 Qb4 10.Bxe8 Rxe8 11.Rd7 e4 12.Nd4 (451.802.924) 564
19 13:20 -8.23 2.Bf1 Rad8 3.Rxd8 Nxd8 4.Ba3 Qc6 5.Bb4 Kg8 6.Nd4 Qd5 7.Nxe6 Nxe6 8.c6 Rf7 9.cxb7 Rxb7 10.c4 Qh5 11.Bd6 Kf7 12.Be2 Qxh6 (451.802.924) 564
___________________________________________________________
20 31:20 +1.66 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 fxe5 4.Rd7 Qb8 5.Na5 Rf5 6.Nxb7 Qf8 7.Nd6 Rb8 8.Bb3 Re8 9.c6 f3 10.Nxe8 Qxe8 11.gxf3 Qb8 12.Re7 Rg5+ 13.Kh2 (1.057.838.257) 562
20 31:20 -2.98 2.Bxe6 Rae8 3.Nd4 Nxd4 4.Bxd4 f3 5.Bd5 Rxe1+ 6.Rxe1 Qf4 7.c3 fxg2 8.Bxb7 Qxh6 9.Bxg2 Qg5 10.Re6 Kg8 11.Be3 Qg4 12.Re4 Qd1+ 13.Kh2 Qd5 14.Re7 Qxa2 (1.057.838.257) 562
20 31:20 -8.37 2.Bf1 Rad8 3.Rxd8 Nxd8 4.Ba3 Qc6 5.Bb4 Kg8 6.Nd4 Qd5 7.c6 Rf7 8.cxb7 Rxb7 9.Nxe6 Nxe6 10.a3 Kf7 11.c4 Qg5 12.Re4 Rb8 13.Bd6 (1.057.838.257) 562
___________________________________________________________
21 69:56 +1.74 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 fxe5 4.Rd7 Qb8
5.Na5 Rf5 6.Nxb7 Qf8 7.Nd6 Rb8 8.Bb3 Re8
9.c6 a5 10.Bd5 a4 11.Nxe8 Qxe8
12.Ba3 Rh5 13.Re7 (2.315.381.277) 551
21 69:56 -2.98 2.Bxe6 Rad8 3.Rxd8 Qxd8 4.Bc4 f3
5.g3 Ne7 6.Ba3 a5 7.c6 Nxc6 8.Bxf8 Qxf8
9.Bd5 Ne5 10.Nd2 Qd6 11.c4 Qb4
12.Rd1 Qa4 13.Ra1 (2.315.381.277) 551
21 69:56 -8.49 2.Bf1 Rad8 3.Rxd8 Nxd8 4.Ba3 Kg8
5.c6 Qxc6 6.Bxf8 Kxf8 7.Nd4 Qd5
8.Nxe6+ Nxe6 9.c4 Qd7 10.Rb1 b6
11.Rb3 Nd4 12.Ra3 Kf7 13.Bd3 Ke6 (2.315.381.277) 551
Eelco
Last edited by Eelco de Groot on Thu May 29, 2008 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
I let Chess Tiger 2007.1 - Gambit ponder on Qxf4 for a while. Here are the results:
Code: Select all
<snip>
00:00:29.6 1. Score: -2,28 depth: 24 Qxf4 exf4 Rxe6 Ne5 Rxe5 fxe5 Rd7 Qb8 Bf7 Rxf7 Rxf7 Qe8 Rxb7 Rd8 Rxa7 Rd1+ Kh2 f3 gxf3 Qc6 Bxe5+ Kg8 Rg7+ Kf8 Bd6+ Ke8
00:00:57.7 1. Score: -2,02 depth: 25 Qxf4 exf4 Rxe6 Ne5 Rxe5 fxe5 Rd7 Qb8 Bf7 Rxf7 Rxf7 Qe8 Rxb7 Rd8 Rxa7 Rd1+ Kh2 f3 gxf3 Rb1 Bc3 Qc6 Bxe5+ Kg8 Rg7+ Kf8 Bd6+ Ke8
00:04:38.7 1. Score: -1,12 depth: 25 Qxf4 exf4 Rxe6 Ne5 Rxe5 fxe5 Rd7 Qb8 Nd2 Qe8 Nf3 Rf5 Nxe5 Rxe5 Rd5
00:08:44.8 1. Score: -0,62 depth: 26 Qxf4 exf4 Rxe6 Ne5 Rxe5 fxe5 Rd7 Qb8 Nd2 Rf5 Nf3 b5 Nxe5 Qxe5 Bxe5+ Rxe5 Bxb5 Rxc5 c4 Re5 Bc6 Re1+ Kh2
00:20:52.2 1. Score: 0,28 depth: 26 Qxf4 exf4 Rxe6 Ne5 Rxe5 fxe5 Rd7 Qb8 Nd2 Rf5 Nf3 b5 Bd5 Qe8 Nxe5 Rxe5 c6
00:34:35.6 1. Score: 1,67 depth: 27 Qxf4 exf4 Rxe6 Ne5 Rxe5 fxe5 Rd7 Qb8 Nd2 Rf5 Nf3 b6 Bd5 bxc5 Bxa8 Kg8 Bd5+ Kf8
01:01:07.2 1. Score: 2,16 depth: 28 Qxf4 exf4 Rxe6 Ne5 Rxe5 b5 Be6 Rae8 Rd7 Qc8 Rxh7+ Kxh7 Bxc8 fxe5 Bd7 e4 Bg7 a6 Bxf8 Rxf8 c6 e3 Bg4 Rc8
Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
The game was a rapid one and 1.Qf4!! and 5.Nd4!! was played, but white on time presure finally lost this because he couldn't find 7.Rd5.S.Taylor wrote:Very difficult? Maybe. But you can see the smoke there. It invites looking into if you reach this position in a tournament game.
It's a little more difficult to convince yourself that it will work all the way, and to be absolutely clear about it before giving up the queen. But a normal player should certainly see the first few moves and get deeply engrossed in it.
Very good for zappa and Tiger. Maybe engines should give a plus when a royal pawn (h6) is present in the castle. Also look at those bishops. I really don't know how difficult will be to do that and, of course, if it works in "normal" chess positions.
Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
Just correcting myself. Rahal played 7. Rd5 but after 7... Rd8 he played 8.Rd8? instead 8.Re5!.jarechu wrote: The game was a rapid one and 1.Qf4!! and 5.Nd4!! was played, but white on time presure finally lost this because he couldn't find 7.Rd5.
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- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
- Location: Redmond, WA USA
Re: Very difficult Test position: 1.Qf4!!
Rybka had a terrible time of it:jarechu wrote:Is any engine able to find this:
[D]r4r1k/ppq4p/2n1bppP/2P1p3/2B2n2/1N3Q2/PBP2PP1/3RR1K1 w - -
[Event "Active"]
[Site "Barcelona (Spain)"]
[Round ""]
[White "Rahal Michael (ENG)"]
[Black "Cuartas Jaime Alexander (COL)"]
[Result ""]
[Eco ""]
[Annotator ""]
[Source ""]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r4r1k/ppq4p/2n1bppP/2P1p3/2B2n2/1N3Q2/PBP2PP1/3RR1K1 w - - 0 1"]
1.Qxf4 exf4 2.Rxe6 Ne5 3.Rxe5 fxe5 4.Rd7 Qb8 5.Nd4 Qe8 6.Nf3
Rf5 7.Rd5 Rd8 8.Rxe5 Rxe5 9.Bxe5+ Qxe5 10.Nxe5 *
Code: Select all
1) Qxf4; pv Qxf4 exf4 R
Searching move: Qf3xf4, Qf3xf4
Best move (Rybkav2.3.2a.w32): Bc4xe6
Not found in: 5:00:00
5 00:00 3.250 104.000 +0.35 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6
6 00:01 6.494 105.553 +0.38 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Qc7e7
7 00:01 11.539 93.777 +0.37 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Qc7e7 Qf3d5
8 00:01 31.794 98.957 +0.44 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Qc7f7 Qf3g4 Ra8e8
9 00:01 68.895 95.984 +0.36 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Qc7f7 a2a4 Ra8d8 a4a5
10 00:02 118.193 95.524 +0.44 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Qc7f7 a2a4 Ne6f4 g2g3 Nf4e6
11 00:03 195.124 96.852 +0.40 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Qc7f7 a2a4 Ne6f4 g2g3 Nf4e6 Re1d1
12 00:05 379.629 95.302 +0.38 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Qc7f7 a2a4 Ne6f4 g2g3 Nf4h3+ Kg1g2 Nh3g5 Qf3g4
13 00:08 706.236 93.871 +0.43 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Qc7f7 a2a4 Ra8d8 a4a5 a7a6 Re1d1 Kh8g8 Bb2c3
14 00:36 3.334.885 95.436 +0.39 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 a2a4 Qc7c8 a4a5 Nc6e7 a5a6 b7xa6 c5c6 Ne7f5
15 00:48 4.504.708 97.495 +0.39 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 a2a4 Qc7c8 a4a5 Nc6e7 a5a6 b7xa6 c5c6 Ne7f5 Rd6d7
16 01:22 7.752.321 97.346 +0.40 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 a2a4 Qc7e7 Re1d1 Re8d8 Qf3d5 Ne6f4 Qd5c4 Rf8e8 g2g3 Nf4e6
17 03:36 21.089.275 96.065 +0.30 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 Qf3d5 Ne6f4 Qd5d1 Nf4e6 Qd1f3 Qc7c8 Re1d1 Ne6g5 Qf3d5 Re8d8
18 07:02 37.800.792 91.765 +0.32 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 Re1b1 Qc7c8 Nb3d2 Nc6e7 Nd2e4 Ne7f5 Rd6d1 Re8e7 Ne4d6 Qc8c6
19 12:17 66.176.381 91.989 +0.36 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 Re1d1 Qc7c8 Qf3g4 Kh8g8 Rd1d2 Re8e7 Bb2c3 Qc8e8 Qg4c4 Qe8f7
20 18:21 98.633.935 91.793 +0.38 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 Re1d1 Qc7c8 Qf3g4 Kh8g8 Rd1d2 Re8e7 Bb2c3 Qc8e8 Qg4c4 Qe8f7
21 33:42 184.715.708 93.581 +0.34 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 Re1d1 Qc7c8 Qf3g4 Rf8g8 a2a4 g6g5 a4a5 Rg8g6 a5a6 b7xa6
22 1:53:04 609.330.644 91.974 +0.32 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 a2a4 Qc7c8 a4a5 Ne6g5 Qf3e2 Re8e6 a5a6 b7xa6 Re1d1 Ng5f7
23 2:34:24 828.718.813 91.607 +0.32 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 a2a4 Qc7c8 a4a5 Ne6g5 Qf3e2 a7a6 f2f4 Ng5e6 f4xe5 Ne6f4
24 4:29:39 1.450.526.408 91.808 +0.31 Bc4xe6 Nf4xe6 Rd1d6 Ra8e8 a2a4 Qc7c8 a4a5 Ne6g5 Qf3d3 Qc8g4 a5a6 Nc6b4 Qd3e2 Qg4xe2
5/30/2008 2:05:51 AM, Time for this analysis: 05:00:01, Rated time: 5:00:00