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Is this positions drawn ??
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glorfindel
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PostPost subject: Re: Is this positions drawn ??    Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 1:38 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
Terry McCracken wrote:

Robin, you improvised and even removed the Black h6 pawn and EGTBs returned a draw. What , more proof do Dan and Uri need??


I agree with Dann that this is the least convincing proof I have read in this thread. The proposal "remove the h6 pawn, and it is still a draw" is useless, because from the first moment Uri asked for proof that Black cannot be placed in zugzwang. It is well known that in such Q v R endings, two protected squares is all the Rook needs in order to defend successfully. If you remove the h6 pawn, you immediately give the black rook a second protected square for free.

I would like to add that I find Robin's proof to be convincing. But if the h6 pawn was missing, the position becomes simpler to evaluate as a draw and his proof would be shorter. He would not have had to prove that the black Rook will always have an available square other than f6. The proof would be something like "Rf6-h6-f6-h6-f6-h6".

Finally would like to bring in the opinion of a expert on this position, namely Mark Dvoretsky. In the book "Dvoretsky's Endgame Manual", Chapter "Queen vs. Rook", paragraph "A Fortress with Multiple Pawns", he analyzes the following position

V. Khenkin, 1962
[d]8/4K2k/4Q1p1/5r1p/7P/8/8/8 b - - 0 1
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    WK    :: BK
   ::    :: WQ :: BP ::
::    ::    :: BR :: BP
   ::    ::    ::    WP
::    ::    ::    ::    
   ::    ::    ::    ::
::    ::    ::    ::    


1... Kh8!? (1... Kg7 and 1... Rf1 are also good) 2. Qxg6 Rf7+ 3.Ke6 Re7+ with a draw by stalemate or perpetual check.

With a shift up, the position is still drawn. But when shifted down, it is lost: White wins by means of a queen attack along the last rank.

So Dvoretsky says our position is drawn, because if we shift Khenkin's position up, we get the structure of the game Topalov-Mamedyarov.
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Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Is this positions drawn ?? M ANSARI Fri May 18, 2007 8:15 pm
      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Tobias Lagemann Fri May 18, 2007 8:53 pm
            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 18, 2007 9:01 pm
                  Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 9:17 pm
                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 18, 2007 9:35 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Alex Brown Fri May 18, 2007 9:47 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:29 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Torstein Wed May 23, 2007 12:33 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:18 pm
                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! nuff Fri May 18, 2007 10:27 pm
                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:34 pm
                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:39 pm
                                                Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Fri May 18, 2007 10:53 pm
                                                      Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Sat May 19, 2007 12:27 am
                                                            Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:57 am
                                                                  Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Sat May 19, 2007 6:13 am
                                                                        Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:14 pm
                                                                        Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Sat May 19, 2007 4:52 pm
                                                                              Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 6:15 pm
                                                                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Sat May 19, 2007 6:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 7:43 pm
                                                                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 6:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 7:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Alessandro Scotti Sat May 19, 2007 9:10 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sun May 20, 2007 3:27 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 4:17 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! M ANSARI Wed May 23, 2007 6:53 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 6:19 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:36 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble nuff Fri May 18, 2007 10:41 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 11:50 pm
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Graham Banks Fri May 18, 2007 11:59 pm
                                                      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 12:03 am
                                                            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Graham Banks Sat May 19, 2007 12:13 am
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Sat May 19, 2007 4:00 am
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 6:14 am
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:17 pm
                                                      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 5:13 pm
                                                            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 6:09 pm
                                                                  Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Mon May 21, 2007 9:51 pm
                                                                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Tue May 22, 2007 3:15 am
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Tue May 22, 2007 4:02 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:20 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Tue May 22, 2007 10:24 pm
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:29 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 11:42 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? J. Prata Thu May 24, 2007 12:19 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Thu May 24, 2007 12:42 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Thu May 24, 2007 1:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 2:29 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Thu May 24, 2007 3:21 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 4:29 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Thu May 24, 2007 7:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 2:25 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 1:38 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 2:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 3:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 5:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 25, 2007 2:35 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 3:25 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Richard Sutherland Fri May 25, 2007 3:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 4:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 5:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Fri May 25, 2007 2:23 am
                                                                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:19 am
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 10:56 pm
                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:15 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:26 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:58 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 12:01 am
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Sat May 19, 2007 12:24 am
      Homer can solve fortress draws Daniel Mehrmann Wed May 23, 2007 11:40 pm
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