ChessUSA.com TalkChess.com
Hosted by Your Move Chess & Games
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Is this positions drawn ??
Post new topic    TalkChess.com Forum Index -> Computer Chess Club: General Topics Flat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Terry McCracken
Guest
PostPost subject: Re: Is this positions drawn ??    Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:20 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
Dann Corbit wrote:
smirobth wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
I agree that this is more convincing and can be used for what I consider as a real proof that I am lazy to construct(I still do not consider it as a proof inspite of the fact that it convinced me).

I think that black even does not need the quare a6 and can do fine even on 7*7 board with only c6 and b6

In order to construct a proof that I am too lazy to do we pracitcally need simply to divide the possible pair of squares of white king and white queen to 12 classes and give the corresponding squares of black king and rook in every class.

After this we need to prove that after white does a move in one of the classes black can capture the queen or make a move that goes to one of the classes.

Uri

Huh??

Robin gave proof, and it's quite simple Rolling Eyes

Page One.... http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13872&start=0

Robin's post is convincing but I do not consider it as a proof.
I simply disagree with you about the meaning of the word proof.

Robin gave a strategy to draw the game.
A proof should prove that the strategy is really possible and that white cannot do something different that I did not imagine.

I am not sure if we practically need to do what I suggested and it is only one way to prove the draw.

Thinking about again it may be more simpler to prove that the strategy that Robin suggested is possible but it needs proof.

Here is part of the proof that you need to write in order to prove it based on my standards and not only in order to convince me(I added comments to Robin comments inside the ().

2) If the king is in check, move out of check to any one of the squares h7, g8, h8(possible but need proof because the queen may control all 3 squares from g7 and if the white king is at f8 white is winning
the white king can never go to f8 but in order to prove that black draw we need to mention the possible squares of the white king and prove that white cannot escape them in every one of the cases)

3) If the rook is not on f6 move the rook to f6(possible assuming the rook is not pinned but the rook cannot be pinned when the black king is at h7 g8 h8 and the rook is at f6 f2 c6 b6 a6).

Uri

Uri, George posted a link above, the utility you need for your final proof is
Freezer.

If this can't give a proof, then you'll have to run a hundred plys full width!

In ten years that might not be a problem Wink

Terry

It will be a proof when freezer is run against the problem and verifies the result. Until then, it is only a very good hypothesis.

Hi Dan,
Even Freezer will not generate a true proof, in the strict mathematical sense, which seems to be what you and Uri seek. This is not only because Freezer's source is not open, as Uri mentioned, but also because Freezer does not generate a full database of all possible relevant positions. In order to keep the computation size and eventual database size manageable, Freezer allows and often even requires users to define rules that will reduce the database computation to levels manageable by Freezer. In the specific position in question at least some rules are required by Freezer. Depending on what rules a user defines the _exact_ same position might result in an evaluation of "White wins", "Draw" or "Black wins", so clearly specifying these rules properly is essential. A savvy Freezer user will be good at defining rules which will result in an accurate conclusion, but this hardly constitutes a true proof in the mathematical sense, any more than my move generating algorithm did.

P.S. I ran Freezer on the position in question. The conclusion Freezer/I reached was "Draw". However I do not have a complete set of 6 man tablebases and I had to define several rules for Freezer to use in its database generation. The first of the rules I defined was "If White's queen is captured" = draw.


I read the Freezer thesis paper. If all the rules supplied are correct, then I believe that the outcome is correct. I also agree with your supposition (except to say draw is the best possible outcome -- it is also possible to lose the queen and lose the game).


Laughing Laughing Laughing
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Is this positions drawn ?? M ANSARI Fri May 18, 2007 8:15 pm
      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Tobias Lagemann Fri May 18, 2007 8:53 pm
            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 18, 2007 9:01 pm
                  Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 9:17 pm
                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 18, 2007 9:35 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Alex Brown Fri May 18, 2007 9:47 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:29 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Torstein Wed May 23, 2007 12:33 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:18 pm
                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! nuff Fri May 18, 2007 10:27 pm
                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:34 pm
                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:39 pm
                                                Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Fri May 18, 2007 10:53 pm
                                                      Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Sat May 19, 2007 12:27 am
                                                            Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:57 am
                                                                  Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Sat May 19, 2007 6:13 am
                                                                        Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:14 pm
                                                                        Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Sat May 19, 2007 4:52 pm
                                                                              Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 6:15 pm
                                                                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Sat May 19, 2007 6:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 7:43 pm
                                                                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 6:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 7:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Alessandro Scotti Sat May 19, 2007 9:10 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sun May 20, 2007 3:27 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 4:17 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! M ANSARI Wed May 23, 2007 6:53 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 6:19 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:36 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble nuff Fri May 18, 2007 10:41 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 11:50 pm
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Graham Banks Fri May 18, 2007 11:59 pm
                                                      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 12:03 am
                                                            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Graham Banks Sat May 19, 2007 12:13 am
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Sat May 19, 2007 4:00 am
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 6:14 am
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:17 pm
                                                      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 5:13 pm
                                                            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 6:09 pm
                                                                  Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Mon May 21, 2007 9:51 pm
                                                                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Tue May 22, 2007 3:15 am
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Tue May 22, 2007 4:02 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:20 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Tue May 22, 2007 10:24 pm
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:29 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 11:42 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? J. Prata Thu May 24, 2007 12:19 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Thu May 24, 2007 12:42 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Thu May 24, 2007 1:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 2:29 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Thu May 24, 2007 3:21 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 4:29 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Thu May 24, 2007 7:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 2:25 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 1:38 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 2:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 3:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 5:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 25, 2007 2:35 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 3:25 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Richard Sutherland Fri May 25, 2007 3:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 4:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 5:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Fri May 25, 2007 2:23 am
                                                                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:19 am
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 10:56 pm
                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:15 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:26 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:58 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 12:01 am
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Sat May 19, 2007 12:24 am
      Homer can solve fortress draws Daniel Mehrmann Wed May 23, 2007 11:40 pm
Post new topic    TalkChess.com Forum Index -> Computer Chess Club: General Topics

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Enhanced with Moby Threads