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Is this positions drawn ??
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Terry McCracken
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PostPost subject: Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!    Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 4:57 am Reply to topic Reply with quote
Dann Corbit wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
nuff wrote:
If you cannot recognise this as a draw get out your chess books and look up endings that are drawn. You are relying too much on your computers and you need to go back to the basics.


I can recognize that I am almost sure that it is a draw.
I cannot recognize it as a draw without doubt.

Chess books are not going to help.

Uri


Robin, and others already gave you the answer. What is the problem?

Yes, John is right, you could find this in a good chess ending book, or on the net.

I said it was a trivial draw, and it is if you understand the position. Calculation won't do much here. If a machine could see enough plys, yes it would show 0.00 and if it knew the technique, it wouldn't have to search.

Terry


Both computers and GMs are often wrong about positions, including some that seem fairly simple.

I think it is a draw. I do not see any way to make progress.
The following analysis by Rybka is obviously a game of "round and round the mullberry bush":
Code:

Analysis from e:\pdraw.epd   
5/18/2007 3:56:46 PM Level: 3600 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka v1.2.w32

1) 0 63                 
    Avoid move:
    Best move (Rybka v1.2.w32): Qd8-d3
    Not found in: 1:00:00
      2   00:00            256   4.161   +3.56   Qd8d3+
      3   00:00            976   15.863   +3.44   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8
      4   00:00          2.264   24.663   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3d4
      5   00:00          6.680   54.288   +3.51   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3d4 Rf6f8
      5   00:00          8.280   54.004   +3.69   Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Ke5e4
      6   00:00         16.688   78.029   +3.69   Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Ke5e4
      7   00:00         28.992   94.849   +3.69   Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Qd3d8+ Kg8h7 Qd8d6
      8   00:01         50.624   106.884   +3.69   Qd8d7 Rf6f2 Qd7d3+ Kh7g8 Qd3d8+ Kg8h7 Qd8d6 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4
      9   00:01        105.080   132.351   +3.68   Qd8d7 Rf6f8 Qd7d3+ Kh7h8 Ke5e6 Kh8g8 Qd3d5 Kg8h8 Ke6d7
      9   00:01        115.040   129.879   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8d5 Rf2e2+ Ke5d6 Kh7h8
     10   00:01        129.848   128.841   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6
     11   00:01        139.632   125.313   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8
     12   00:01        166.576   121.232   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     13   00:02        208.864   104.483   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     14   00:03        246.048   103.344   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     15   00:03        301.040   103.827   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     16   00:04        425.720   100.701   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     17   00:06        510.360   93.943   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     18   00:07        639.496   93.123   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     19   00:11        967.320   92.677   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     20   00:13      1.168.768   94.096   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     21   00:16      1.470.712   97.155   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     22   00:19      1.794.056   98.881   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     23   00:23      2.222.128   99.813   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     24   00:27      2.774.096   103.708   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     25   00:34      3.466.056   105.209   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     26   00:41      4.342.760   107.968   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     27   00:52      5.462.328   106.985   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     28   01:06      6.870.568   107.257   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     29   01:19      8.631.296   111.349   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     30   02:05     10.766.352   88.396   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     31   02:23     13.405.704   96.237   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     32   02:45     16.587.888   103.169   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     33   03:09     20.398.272   110.298   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     34   03:36     24.823.512   117.698   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     35   04:08     30.298.728   125.151   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     36   04:55     37.095.552   129.031   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     37   05:42     45.004.520   134.935   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     38   06:30     54.263.680   142.493   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     39   07:28     65.595.528   149.937   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     40   08:34     79.040.464   157.590   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     41   10:12     99.861.416   167.203   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     42   12:07    122.940.352   173.101   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     43   14:20    150.452.920   179.251   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     44   16:55    183.410.728   185.148   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
     45   20:18    228.039.120   191.801   +3.69   Qd8d3+ Kh7h8 Qd3a3 Rf6f2 Qa3a8+ Kh8h7 Qa8b8 Rf2e2+ Ke5f4 Re2f2+ Kf4e3 Rf2f6 Qb8d8 Rf6e6+
   5/18/2007 4:21:12 PM, Time for this analysis: 00:24:23, Rated time: 1:00:00

0 of 1 matching moves
5/18/2007 4:21:13 PM, Total time: 12:24:27 AM


Trading queen for rook + pawn is clearly drawn:
Code:

[Event "Edited position"]
[Site "DCORBIT64"]
[Date "2007.05.18"]
[Round "-"]
[White "-"]
[Black "-"]
[Result "*"]
[FEN "3Q4/6pk/5r1p/4K2P/8/8/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

{--------------
. . . Q . . . .
. . . . . . p k
. . . . . r . p
. . . . K . . P
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . .
white to play
--------------}
1. Qxf6 gxf6+ 2. Kxf6
*
[D]8/7k/5K1p/7P/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 2


But that does not mean that there is not some path we did not think of.

I trust neither the GMs nor the computers nor myself. I always imagine that I may have missed something important, and they might have also.


There is nothing important in this position, and endgame table bases have already proved that.

Sorry Dan, but you'll never find a way for White to make progress.

Terry
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Display posts from previous:   
Subject Author Date/Time
Is this positions drawn ?? M ANSARI Fri May 18, 2007 8:15 pm
      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Tobias Lagemann Fri May 18, 2007 8:53 pm
            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 18, 2007 9:01 pm
                  Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 9:17 pm
                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 18, 2007 9:35 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Alex Brown Fri May 18, 2007 9:47 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:29 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Torstein Wed May 23, 2007 12:33 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:18 pm
                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! nuff Fri May 18, 2007 10:27 pm
                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:34 pm
                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:39 pm
                                                Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Fri May 18, 2007 10:53 pm
                                                      Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Sat May 19, 2007 12:27 am
                                                            Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:57 am
                                                                  Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Sat May 19, 2007 6:13 am
                                                                        Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:14 pm
                                                                        Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Sat May 19, 2007 4:52 pm
                                                                              Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 6:15 pm
                                                                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Sat May 19, 2007 6:20 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 7:43 pm
                                                                                    Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 6:31 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 7:39 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Alessandro Scotti Sat May 19, 2007 9:10 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Terry McCracken Sun May 20, 2007 3:27 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 4:17 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! M ANSARI Wed May 23, 2007 6:53 am
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! George Tsavdaris Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 pm
                                                                                          Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !! Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 6:19 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:36 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble nuff Fri May 18, 2007 10:41 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 11:50 pm
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Graham Banks Fri May 18, 2007 11:59 pm
                                                      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 12:03 am
                                                            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble Graham Banks Sat May 19, 2007 12:13 am
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Sat May 19, 2007 4:00 am
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 6:14 am
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:17 pm
                                                      Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 5:13 pm
                                                            Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 6:09 pm
                                                                  Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Mon May 21, 2007 9:51 pm
                                                                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Tue May 22, 2007 3:15 am
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Tue May 22, 2007 4:02 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:20 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Tue May 22, 2007 10:24 pm
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:29 am
                                                                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 11:42 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? J. Prata Thu May 24, 2007 12:19 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Thu May 24, 2007 12:42 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Thu May 24, 2007 1:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 2:29 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Thu May 24, 2007 3:21 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 4:29 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Thu May 24, 2007 7:20 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 2:25 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 1:38 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 2:11 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 3:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 5:04 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 25, 2007 2:35 am
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 3:25 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Richard Sutherland Fri May 25, 2007 3:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 4:09 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Robin Smith Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 5:05 pm
                                                                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Fri May 25, 2007 2:23 am
                                                                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:19 am
                                                                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 10:56 pm
                        Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:15 pm
                              Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:26 pm
                                    Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:58 pm
                                          Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 12:01 am
                                                Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Paulo Soares Sat May 19, 2007 12:24 am
      Homer can solve fortress draws Daniel Mehrmann Wed May 23, 2007 11:40 pm
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