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Uri Blass

Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 5958
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Post subject: Re: Is this positions drawn ??    Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 10:36 pm

smirobth wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
 Tobias Lagemann wrote: Hi, the position is a typical fortress (and draw). Topalov and Mamedyrov know this, engines don't. Tobias

Indeed, it's a trivial draw.

Terry

I disagree about trivial.

I believe it is a draw but in order to prove that it is a draw you need to tell me a strategy for black were to put the king and rook against every possibility of squares for white king and queen.

Without it I cannot be sure that white cannot force black into a zugzwang and win the rook by a fork.

Uri

Hi Uri,
It seems pretty trivial to me:
1) The rook just stays on f6 while Black's king moves around the squares g8-h8-h7. If the queen is on the eight rank, so that king moves are impossible, the rook can leave f6 to any one of many squares (for example on f2 the rook and king cannot ever be forked, and if the queen is on the 8th rank it cannot also hit the f2 square) and then move back to f6 next turn. There would also be squares on the 6th rank for the rook, if White's king were to guard the f2 square. With so many good potential squares for the rook and king zugzwang will not ever become a factor.
2) Even if you remove Black's h-pawn (a change which can't possibly help Black in this case) tablebases prove the position is still a draw.

1)It is correct that the queen cannot hit the f2 square but queen e8 king e3 may force the rook to go f6-f1 assuming that black keep the rook at the f file.

After that white can make some checks.
It is correct that I do not see checks that lead to fork but it is not a proof that there are not checks that lead to fork in another line.

2)removing black's h pawn can give the rook the square h6 so I am not sure that it cannot help black.

I strongly believe that it is a draw but I am careful not to say that I saw a proof that it is a draw.
 Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First
Subject Author Date/Time
M ANSARI Fri May 18, 2007 8:15 pm
Tobias Lagemann Fri May 18, 2007 8:53 pm
Terry McCracken Fri May 18, 2007 9:01 pm
Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 9:17 pm
Robin Smith Fri May 18, 2007 9:35 pm
Alex Brown Fri May 18, 2007 9:47 pm
Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:29 pm
Torstein Wed May 23, 2007 12:33 pm
Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:18 pm
nuff Fri May 18, 2007 10:27 pm
Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:34 pm
Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:39 pm
Terry McCracken Fri May 18, 2007 10:53 pm
Dann Corbit Sat May 19, 2007 12:27 am
Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:57 am
Dann Corbit Sat May 19, 2007 6:13 am
Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:14 pm
George Tsavdaris Sat May 19, 2007 4:52 pm
Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 6:15 pm
George Tsavdaris Sat May 19, 2007 6:20 pm
Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 7:43 pm
Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 6:31 pm
Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 7:39 pm
Alessandro Scotti Sat May 19, 2007 9:10 pm
Terry McCracken Sun May 20, 2007 3:27 am
Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 4:17 am
M ANSARI Wed May 23, 2007 6:53 am
George Tsavdaris Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 pm
Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 6:19 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:36 pm
nuff Fri May 18, 2007 10:41 pm
Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 11:50 pm
Graham Banks Fri May 18, 2007 11:59 pm
Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 12:03 am
Graham Banks Sat May 19, 2007 12:13 am
Robin Smith Sat May 19, 2007 4:00 am
Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 6:14 am
Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 4:17 pm
Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 5:13 pm
Terry McCracken Sat May 19, 2007 6:09 pm
Dann Corbit Mon May 21, 2007 9:51 pm
Robin Smith Tue May 22, 2007 3:15 am
Dann Corbit Tue May 22, 2007 4:02 am
Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:20 am
Robin Smith Tue May 22, 2007 10:24 pm
Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:29 am
Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 11:42 pm
J. Prata Thu May 24, 2007 12:19 am
Dann Corbit Thu May 24, 2007 12:42 am
Robin Smith Thu May 24, 2007 1:20 am
Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 2:29 am
Robin Smith Thu May 24, 2007 3:21 am
Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 4:29 am
Uri Blass Thu May 24, 2007 7:20 am
Terry McCracken Thu May 24, 2007 2:25 am
glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 1:38 am
Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 2:11 am
glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 3:04 pm
Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 5:04 pm
Robin Smith Fri May 25, 2007 2:35 am
glorfindel Fri May 25, 2007 3:25 pm
Richard Sutherland Fri May 25, 2007 3:50 pm
Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 4:09 pm
Robin Smith Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm
Terry McCracken Fri May 25, 2007 5:05 pm
Dann Corbit Fri May 25, 2007 2:23 am
Terry McCracken Tue May 22, 2007 4:19 am
Dann Corbit Wed May 23, 2007 10:56 pm
Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:15 pm
Uri Blass Fri May 18, 2007 10:26 pm
Paulo Soares Fri May 18, 2007 10:58 pm
Uri Blass Sat May 19, 2007 12:01 am
Paulo Soares Sat May 19, 2007 12:24 am
Daniel Mehrmann Wed May 23, 2007 11:40 pm

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