CCT next time around

[bob]

I have a proposal that will help address the apparent difficulty everyone has figuring out when round 1 of these events is supposed to start.

1. From here forward, announce the time in pure GMT. Period. Make it a prerequisite that the operators MUST be able to convert GMT to their local time. There are web pages. Many computer types know their offset from GMT (Alabama is CST, GMT-6, for example).

2. At the start of round one, and I mean "ON TIME" if anyone is not logged in, the admin logs in for them (require ALL programs to provide him with their login name and password. The admin logs in, and accepts the game invite. And does nothing else. That starts the late entrant's clock to ticking, just as is done in real human events. If the entrant logs in later, the admin will automatically be logged out with that "you can't both be logged in message" and the game will continue perfectly. With the clock time correct for the amount of time the program was late. If it doesn't connect before its flag falls, it loses.
3. Since that will be about 1/2 of the normal game time, it won't drag the round out anyway, and if the entrant connects, he gets whatever is left, while his on-time opponent gets the normal clock setting. If BOTH are missing, this still works. Admin logs in for BOTH, sets up the match, but does not move. If the black entrant shows up while white is still MIA, no penalty. If white shows up before black, it will make a move and now black is losing time.

We have been doing CCT/ACCA/etc events for a LONG time. And yet folks simply can NOT get there on time. I simply went to the CCT web page Peter had and found that the times were 1300 GMT+1. I'd prefer to see in the future 1200 GMT. He sent an email with the round times. Yet we STILL had 4 that did not arrive on time. I was sick as a dog this am, but I still had my clock set for 5:45am on a Saturday morning, to be sure Crafty was where it was supposed to be, and when.

I've TD'd a bunch of human games, and we've generally used something very similar to the above, but with a cut-off. IE it makes no sense to make Black sit at the board for 2 hours until white's flag falls, in a 40/2hr tournament, so most events have a published deadline, something like "at the scheduled start time, white's clock is started. If white is not present after 30 minutes, he forfeits. If both are missing, both get a 0 for that round. We could do that if we wish, but since computers don't get tired of waiting, I'd suggest letting the flag fall naturally to end the game, giving the late player every opportunity to get in before it is too late. But we must stop this showing up late every single event (not the same people, but too many every time, all then complaining if they were given a loss, or even better, just booted from the event as there is no sense in providing automatic 1's for opponents of a program that will apparently not participate.

Thoughts?

This never happened at ACM events. We started the clock, but then we had real chess clocks.

This is something some of the tournament director software developers ought to address and provide a solution for.

[Richard Allbert]

Agree with you, although this year Peter had written:

"
UTC + 1 with a link next to it to see exactly what time this is in different time zones.
"
on the website.


I'm not sure how different this is to googling for "gmt time now"

[Modern Times]

I always find it easier if someone says "13:00 New York time" or something like that. Then in timeanddate,com. you can search for that city and see exactly what time it is there and compare it to your own location

[hgm]

The ICS prints both local time and GMT, when you issue a "date" command:

Code: Select all

fics% date
Local time     - Sun Feb 24, 09:09 CET 2013
Greenwich time - Sun Feb 24, 08:09 GMT 2013

I think the safest way would be to announce either GMT or "Local (Amsterdam) server time", so that people can verify when in doubt. It does not explicitly mention UTC, so announcing times in UTC is probably a mistake.

[lucasart]

The ICS prints both local time and GMT, when you issue a "date" command:

Code: Select all

fics% date
Local time     - Sun Feb 24, 09:09 CET 2013
Greenwich time - Sun Feb 24, 08:09 GMT 2013

I think the safest way would be to announce either GMT or "Local (Amsterdam) server time", so that people can verify when in doubt. It does not explicitly mention UTC, so announcing times in UTC is probably a mistake.

Unless you're a Physicist, UTC = GMT. The difference lies in some sub-second details.

[hgm]

Unless you're a Physicist, UTC = GMT. The difference lies in some sub-second details.

For this matter, the difference is that the server prints "GMT", and does not print "UTC". That they are (practically) the same is knowledge that many people (apparently) lack.

[elpapa]

Alabama is CST, GMT-6, for example.

In the summer CST would be GMT-5. UK itself isn't GMT in the summer, but GMT+1. Since not all countries follow the same rules for Daylight Savings Time, using something else will probably mess things up even more, though.

And then you have the southern hemisphere. God knows what's going on there.

[Don]

I have a proposal that will help address the apparent difficulty everyone has figuring out when round 1 of these events is supposed to start.

1. From here forward, announce the time in pure GMT. Period. Make it a prerequisite that the operators MUST be able to convert GMT to their local time. There are web pages. Many computer types know their offset from GMT (Alabama is CST, GMT-6, for example).

2. At the start of round one, and I mean "ON TIME" if anyone is not logged in, the admin logs in for them (require ALL programs to provide him with their login name and password. The admin logs in, and accepts the game invite. And does nothing else. That starts the late entrant's clock to ticking, just as is done in real human events. If the entrant logs in later, the admin will automatically be logged out with that "you can't both be logged in message" and the game will continue perfectly. With the clock time correct for the amount of time the program was late. If it doesn't connect before its flag falls, it loses.
3. Since that will be about 1/2 of the normal game time, it won't drag the round out anyway, and if the entrant connects, he gets whatever is left, while his on-time opponent gets the normal clock setting. If BOTH are missing, this still works. Admin logs in for BOTH, sets up the match, but does not move. If the black entrant shows up while white is still MIA, no penalty. If white shows up before black, it will make a move and now black is losing time.

We have been doing CCT/ACCA/etc events for a LONG time. And yet folks simply can NOT get there on time. I simply went to the CCT web page Peter had and found that the times were 1300 GMT+1. I'd prefer to see in the future 1200 GMT. He sent an email with the round times. Yet we STILL had 4 that did not arrive on time. I was sick as a dog this am, but I still had my clock set for 5:45am on a Saturday morning, to be sure Crafty was where it was supposed to be, and when.

I've TD'd a bunch of human games, and we've generally used something very similar to the above, but with a cut-off. IE it makes no sense to make Black sit at the board for 2 hours until white's flag falls, in a 40/2hr tournament, so most events have a published deadline, something like "at the scheduled start time, white's clock is started. If white is not present after 30 minutes, he forfeits. If both are missing, both get a 0 for that round. We could do that if we wish, but since computers don't get tired of waiting, I'd suggest letting the flag fall naturally to end the game, giving the late player every opportunity to get in before it is too late. But we must stop this showing up late every single event (not the same people, but too many every time, all then complaining if they were given a loss, or even better, just booted from the event as there is no sense in providing automatic 1's for opponents of a program that will apparently not participate.

Thoughts?

This never happened at ACM events. We started the clock, but then we had real chess clocks.

This is something some of the tournament director software developers ought to address and provide a solution for.

Your proposal makes sense. I assume the software can handle that and that is exactly what happens in a real tournament.

What happens in the case that neither play shows up period? White would forfeit the game and black would get a win for not showing up. So I would propose that after 1 hour (or 30 minutes) you forfeit if you are not present.

Don

[jdart]

I note we only started about 1/2 hr late so that is not excessive IMO.

I like the admin login method suggested though - it makes sense a late joiner should get a time penalty.

Another alternative to forfeit if the server supports it is to do a late join and add the program in the next round. (This complicates pairing though since H.G. Muller's server tournament bot does not support late join).

Btw. too in future if we have 20+ participants we could do a >7 round swiss.

--Jon

[bob]

Alabama is CST, GMT-6, for example.

In the summer CST would be GMT-5. UK itself isn't GMT in the summer, but GMT+1. Since not all countries follow the same rules for Daylight Savings Time, using something else will probably mess things up even more, though.

And then you have the southern hemisphere. God knows what's going on there.

That's the reason to use GMT time, period. It is up to the individiual participant to know their local offset. Mine changes to -5 when DST kicks in. But there are lots of exceptions. For example, a locality can elect to change their offset, most commonly because they are near some large city (or state) that is in a different time zone and they want to make things easier for their residents. It would be up to each participant to know where they are, and what their offset is. Including whether or not they use DST (not all of US uses DST, for example).