Testing time

[rebel777]

From my test position collection I came across a couple of beauties. We begin with 2 easy ones:

[d]r3rk2/ppq2pbQ/2p1b1p1/4p1B1/2P3P1/3P1B2/P3PPK1/1R5R w - - 0 1 bm Qxg7+; id easy but soooooooo nice;
1.Qxg7+ Kxg7 2.Rh7+ Kxh7 3.Bf6 Bxg4 4.Bxg4 e4 5.Rh1 Qh2 6.Rxh2 Kg8 7.Rh8+ 1-0

[d] q7/4pk2/2p2nRQ/8/2PP1P1p/p5b1/2PK4/8 w - - 0 1 bm Rxf6+; id easy but soooooooooo nice;
1.Rxf6 exf6 2.Qh7+ Ke6 3.f5+ Kd6 4.c5+ Kd5 5.Qg8+ Qxg8? 6.Kd3 h3 7.c4 1-0

Now that we are in the mood let's go somewhat harder with 4 nice positional game fragments. The good moves can be found either by good positional insight or (of course) by depth. IMO all should be doable in 3-min for the top engines.

[d] r1b1kb1r/1p1n1ppp/p2ppn2/6BB/2qNP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2Q1RK1 w kq - 0 1 bm Nex6; id positional;
1. Nxe6

[d] rnb1kb1r/1p3ppp/p5q1/4p3/3N4/4BB2/PPPQ1P1P/R3K2R w KQkq - 0 1 bm 0-0-0; id positional;
1. 0-0-0

[d] r1r1q1k1/6p1/3b1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 1 bm Be4; id positional;
1. Be4 (from the immortal game Deep Blue - Garry Kasparov)

[d] r1bk3r/1pp2pp1/p2p1n1p/5q2/8/4BN2/PPPQ1PPP/3RR1K1 w - - 0 1 bm Bb6; id positional;
1. Bb6

What about the endgame? Here are 2 nice ones. Not terrible hard but I guess it will give some engines a headache.

[d] 8/4K2p/6pr/5pk1/1pB2R2/p4PP1/8/8 w - - 0 1 bm Rg4+; id to find with a winning score;
1.Rg4+ (to find with a winning score! +0.50 (or so) is not good enough, at least +2.xx)

[d] 7r/1k2P2P/4p3/1pp5/8/2pp4/1n3PP1/R4K1R w - - 0 1 bm g4; id endgame;
1. g4

And now if your favorite engine succesfully solved the above 2 real hard ones. There is no shame not finding the right move.

[d] r2qr1k1/pb3pp1/1p1b1n1p/3pN3/3P4/P2B1Q2/1P1B1PPP/R3R1K1 w - - 0 1 bm Bxh6; id hard !!
1. Bxh6 (very deep combination)

[d] 6k1/6p1/7p/1P1P4/4q3/1r5P/6P1/3R1Q1K w - - 0 1 bm d6; id hard !!
1.d6 (likewise, deeeeeeeeeeeeeeep)

Have fun,

Ed

[Sean Evans]

Hi, may I inquire why you are selling Rebel 12 for Euros$41.65 ?? In Canadian dollars that would be on 20 Mar 2009, 1.00 European Euro(s) = 1.68 Canadian OR CDN$69.97.

What improvements have you made to the program in the last four years to justify this high commercial price?

Thank you,

Sean Evans

[kgburcham]

[D] 7r/1k2P2P/4p3/1pp5/8/2pp4/1n3PP1/R4K1R w - -

14/47 0:15 +0.74 1.e8Q Rxe8 2.h8Q Rxh8 3.Rxh8 b4 4.Ke1 Kc7 5.Ra7+ Kb6 6.Rd7 Kc6 7.Rdd8 b3 8.Rc8+ Kd5 9.Rhd8+ (29.910.362) 1904
15/49 0:25 0.00 1.e8Q Rxe8 2.h8Q Rxh8 3.Rxh8 b4 4.Ke1 b3 5.Rd8 Kc7 6.Raa8 c2 7.Rdc8+ Kb6 8.Rab8+ Ka7 9.Ra8+ Kb6 (51.720.985) 2023
15/49 1:20 +2.49 1.g4 Nc4 2.Rh3 Ne5 3.f4 Nxg4 4.Rxd3 Nf6 5.Re1 b4 6.Rh3 Kc7 7.Rxe6 Ne8 8.Re2 (157.300.993) 1959
16/51 1:28 +2.49 1.g4 Nc4 2.Rh3 Ne5 3.f4 Nxg4 4.Rxd3 Nf6 5.Re1 b4 6.Rh3 Kc7 7.Rxe6 Ne8 8.Re2 (172.879.562) 1960



[D] r2qr1k1/pb3pp1/1p1b1n1p/3pN3/3P4/P2B1Q2/1P1B1PPP/R3R1K1 w - -

13.08 0:10 +0.67++ 1.Bxh6 (2.356.959) 240
13.01 0:11 +0.87++ 1.Bxh6 (2.622.297) 229
14.01 0:17 +1.02 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Kf8 3.Qf4 Kg7 4.Re3 Bxe5 5.Rg3+ Kf8 6.dxe5 Ne4 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Rg6 Rxe5 9.Qxe5 fxg6 10.Qh8+ Kf7 11.Qh7+ Kf6 12.Qxb7 Rc8 13.Qxe4 Qd6 14.Re1 (4.031.352) 231
15.01 0:36 +1.00 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Kf8 3.Qf4 Kg7 4.Re3 Bxe5 5.Rg3+ Kf8 6.dxe5 Ne4 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Rg6 Rxe5 9.Qxe5 fxg6 10.Qh8+ Kf7 11.Qh7+ Kf6 12.Qxb7 Rc8 13.Qxe4 Qd6 14.Re1 (8.959.650) 254
16.01 1:06 +1.01 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Kf8 3.Qf4 Kg7 4.Re3 Bxe5 5.Rg3+ Kf8 6.dxe5 Ne4 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Rg6 Rxe5 9.Qxe5 fxg6 10.Qh8+ Kf7 11.Qh7+ Kf6 12.Qxb7 Rc8 13.Qxe4 Qd6 14.Qf3+ (17.221.013) 265
17.01 1:20 +1.01 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Kf8 3.Qf4 Kg7 4.Re3 Bxe5 5.Rg3+ Kf8 6.dxe5 Ne4 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Rg6 Rxe5 9.Qxe5 fxg6 10.Qh8+ Kf7 11.Qh7+ Kf6 12.Qxb7 Rc8 13.Qxe4 Qd6 14.Qf3+ (20.247.542) 257
18.01 2:41 +1.02 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Kf8 3.Qf4 Kg7 4.Re3 Bxe5 5.Rg3+ Kf8 6.dxe5 Ne4 7.Bxe4 dxe4 8.Rg6 Rxe5 9.Qxe5 fxg6 10.Qh8+ Kf7 11.Qh7+ Kf6 12.Qxb7 Rc8 13.Qxe4 Qd6 14.Qf3+ (41.394.596) 262


[D] 6k1/6p1/7p/1P1P4/4q3/1r5P/6P1/3R1Q1K w - -

20.01 1:27 +2.02 1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Kf7 4.d6 Ke8 5.d7+ (15.009.559) 176
21.03 3:12 +2.22++ 1.d6 (34.236.354) 182
21.01 3:46 +2.42++ 1.d6 (39.920.083) 180
21.01 4:40 +2.82++ 1.d6 (49.335.263) 180


[D] 6k1/6p1/7p/1P1P4/4q3/1r5P/6P1/3R1Q1K w - - 0 1

1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb8 5.d7 Rd8 6.Kg3 Kf7 7.Kh4 Kf6 8.g3 g6 9.Rd6+ Kf7 10.Kg4 Kf8 11.Kf4
+- (1.88) Depth: 20/49 00:01:22 176mN
1.d6
+- (1.89) Depth: 20/51 00:02:10 281mN
1.d6
+- (2.13) Depth: 20/52 00:03:46 551mN

[Dan]

And now if your favorite engine succesfully solved the above 2 real hard ones. There is no shame not finding the right move.

[d] r2qr1k1/pb3pp1/1p1b1n1p/3pN3/3P4/P2B1Q2/1P1B1PPP/R3R1K1 w - - 0 1 bm Bxh6; id hard !!
1. Bxh6 (very deep combination)

Chessmaster personality Leko sees Bxh6 more as a drawing move than a winning move...

Time Depth Score Positions Moves
0:00 1/6 0.45 104074 1.Qf5 Qc8 2.Qf3 Bxe5 3.dxe5 d4
0:00 1/6 0.51 117735 1.Bf5 Ne4 2.Bxe4 Bxe5 3.Bh7+ Kxh7
4.dxe5
0:01 1/6 0.57 231785 1.Bf4 Qe7 2.Rad1 Rac8 3.Bf5 Ba6
0:02 2/7 0.66 387360 1.Bf4 Bxe5 2.dxe5 Qe7 3.Re2 Ne4
4.Rc1
0:05 2/8 0.50 1060608 1.Bf4 Qe7 2.Bb5 Rac8 3.Bxe8 Rxe8
4.Rac1 a6
0:07 2/8 0.70 1398995 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Kf8 3.Qf4 Re6
4.Qxh6+ Ke7 5.Ng6+ Kd7 6.Bf5 Qg8
7.Bxe6+ fxe6
0:13 2/9 0.44 2811777 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Ng4 3.Qxg4+
Qg5 4.Qd7 Bxe5 5.dxe5 Re7 6.Qd6
Rae8 7.Bb5
0:34 3/10 0.39 7877403 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Ng4 3.Qxg4+
Qg5 4.Qd7 Bxe5 5.dxe5 Re7 6.Qd6
Rae8 7.Bb5 Rc8
1:34 3/11 0.26 22735153 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Ng4 3.Qxg4+
Qg5 4.Nxf7 Qxg4 5.Nxh6+ Kg7 6.Nxg4
Rxe1+ 7.Rxe1 Rc8 8.Ne5 Bxe5 9.Rxe5
4:46 3/12 0.17 69566364 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Ng4 3.Qxg4+
Qg5 4.Nxf7 Qxg4 5.Nxh6+ Kg7 6.Nxg4
Rxe1+ 7.Rxe1 Rf8 8.f3 Bc8 9.Ne5
17:45 4/13 0.39 254267504 1.Bxh6 gxh6 2.Qg3+ Kf8 3.Qf4 Re6
4.Qxh6+ Ke7 5.Bf5 Bxe5 6.dxe5 Ne4
7.Bxe6 Qh8 8.Qxh8 Rxh8 9.Bf5 Nxf2
10.Kxf2 Rxh2

[jdart]

A few comments:

[D] r1b1kb1r/1p1n1ppp/p2ppn2/6BB/2qNP3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R2Q1RK1 w kq -

(bm Nxe6). This Keres-Kotov, Candidates (m/5) 1950. Rybka doesn't find it difficult but Arasan does..

[D] r1r1q1k1/6p1/3b1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 37

The Deep Blue position is hard if you want the engine to see a win; but Rybka 3 plays Be4 right away, with a modest + score.

[D] 6k1/6p1/7p/1P1P4/4q3/1r5P/6P1/3R1Q1K w - - 0 1

That's a cute one, and difficult. What is the orgin of this?

--Jon

[swami]

[d] 6k1/6p1/7p/1P1P4/4q3/1r5P/6P1/3R1Q1K w - - 0 1 bm d6; id hard !!
1.d6 (likewise, deeeeeeeeeeeeeeep)

Have fun,

Ed

I'll attempt the harder ones: Bright found the solution to the above position in 42 seconds with clear + score.

Analysis by bright-0.4-cct1:

1.Re1 Qxd5 2.Re8+ Kh7
+/- (1.00) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
1.Qe1 Qxe1+ 2.Rxe1 Rxb5
+/- (1.04) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
1.d6 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1
+- (1.50) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
1.Kh2 Qe5+ 2.Kg1
+- (2.03) Depth: 1/4 00:00:00
1.Kh2 Rb2
+- (2.00) Depth: 2/5 00:00:00
1.Kh2 Qe5+ 2.Kg1 Rb2
+- (1.71) Depth: 3/7 00:00:00
1.d6 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1 Qe3+ 3.Qf2 Qb3 4.Re1
+- (1.82) Depth: 3/13 00:00:00
1.d6 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1 Qe3+ 3.Qf2 Qb3 4.Re1 Rh5 5.Re8+ Kh7
+- (1.97) Depth: 4/21 00:00:00
1.d6 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1 Qe3+ 3.Qf2 Rh1+ 4.Kxh1 Qxf2 5.d7 Qh4+ 6.Kg1 Qd8 7.b6
-+ (-2.18) Depth: 5/21 00:00:00
1.Qf2 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1 Qg6 3.Rc1 Rb3 4.Rc8+ Kh7
+/- (1.28) Depth: 5/21 00:00:00
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rb2+ 4.Kf3 Rxb5
+- (1.45) Depth: 5/21 00:00:00
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Kf7
+- (1.43) Depth: 6/21 00:00:00 45kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb2+ 5.Kf3 Kf7
+- (1.52) Depth: 7/21 00:00:00 60kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb2+ 5.Kf3 Rb3+ 6.Ke4 Kf7
+- (1.81) Depth: 8/21 00:00:01 108kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb2+ 5.Kf3 Rb3+ 6.Ke4 Rb4+ 7.Ke5 Kf7
+- (1.95) Depth: 9/21 00:00:01 197kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb8 5.Kg3 Rd8 6.Kf4 Kf7
+- (1.81) Depth: 10/23 00:00:01 384kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb8 5.Kg3 Rd8 6.Kf4 Kf7 7.Kf5
+- (1.83) Depth: 11/23 00:00:01 675kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb8 5.Kg3 Rd8 6.Kf4 Kf7 7.d7 Kf6 8.Rd6+ Ke7
+- (1.76) Depth: 12/29 00:00:01 1001kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb8 5.Kg3 Rd8 6.Kf4 Kf7 7.d7 Kf6 8.Rd6+ Ke7
+- (1.76) Depth: 13/31 00:00:02 1926kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.d6 Rb8 5.Kg3 Rd8 6.Kf4 Kf7 7.Kf5 g6+ 8.Ke5 Re8+ 9.Kd5 Re2 10.Rf1+ Ke8
+- (1.82) Depth: 14/39 00:00:02 10222kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.Kf3 Kf7 5.Ke4 Ke7 6.d6+ Kd7 7.Rd2 Rb4+ 8.Ke5 h5 9.Rd5 Rb2 10.g3
+/- (1.34) Depth: 15/42 00:00:02 14713kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.Kf3 Kf7 5.Ke4 Ke7 6.Rc1 Rb2 7.Rc7+ Kf6 8.Rc6+ Kg5 9.d6 Rd2 10.g3 h5 11.Rc5+ Kf6
+/- (1.27) Depth: 16/48 00:00:06 37617kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.Ke3 Kf7 5.Kd4 Rb2 6.g4 Ke7 7.d6+ Kd7 8.Kc5 Ra2 9.Kd5 Ra5+ 10.Ke4 h5 11.Rd3 hxg4 12.hxg4
+/- (1.29) Depth: 17/48 00:00:11 65481kN
1.Kg1 Qe3+ 2.Qf2 Qxf2+ 3.Kxf2 Rxb5 4.Ke3 Kf7 5.Kd4 Rb2 6.g4 Ke7 7.d6+ Kd7 8.Kc5 Ra2 9.Kd5 Ra5+ 10.Ke4 h5 11.Rd3 hxg4 12.hxg4
+/- (1.29) Depth: 18/59 00:00:16 97315kN
1.d6 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1 Qe3+ 3.Qf2 Rh1+ 4.Kxh1 Qxf2 5.d7 Qh4+ 6.Kg1 Qd8 7.Rd4 g5 8.b6 h5 9.b7 Kg7 10.Rb4 Qb8 11.d8Q Qxd8 12.b8Q Qxb8 13.Rxb8 Kg6 14.Rb5 Kf6 15.g3
+- (3.73) Depth: 18/66 00:00:42 252mN
1.d6 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1 Qe3+ 3.Qf2 Rh1+ 4.Kxh1 Qxf2 5.d7 Qh4+ 6.Kg1 Qd8 7.Rd4 g5 8.b6 h5 9.b7 Kg7 10.Rb4 Qb8 11.d8Q Qxd8 12.b8Q Qxb8 13.Rxb8 Kg6 14.Rb5 Kf6 15.g3 h4
+- (3.79) Depth: 19/66 00:00:47 287mN
1.d6 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1 Qe3+ 3.Qf2 Rh1+ 4.Kxh1 Qxf2 5.d7 Qh4+ 6.Kg1 Qd8 7.Rd4 g5 8.b6 h5 9.b7 Kg7 10.Rb4 Qb8 11.d8Q Qxd8 12.b8Q Qxb8 13.Rxb8 Kg6 14.g3 Kf6 15.Kg2 Kg6 16.Rb6+ Kg7
+- (3.97) Depth: 20/66 00:01:03 392mN
1.d6 Rxh3+ 2.Kg1 Qe3+ 3.Qf2 Rh1+ 4.Kxh1 Qxf2 5.d7 Qh4+ 6.Kg1 Qd8 7.Rd4 g5 8.b6 h5 9.b7 Kg7 10.Rb4 Qb8 11.d8Q Qxd8 12.b8Q Qxb8 13.Rxb8 Kf6 14.g3 Kf5 15.Rb5+ Kg6 16.Kg2 g4
+- (3.99) Depth: 21/66 00:01:33 581mN

[Howard E]

[D] 7r/1k2P2P/4p3/1pp5/8/2pp4/1n3PP1/R4K1R w - - 0 1

i7 - 920
512 hash

ProDeo Ares:
12 00:01 3.884.280 3.884.280 -0.01 Rh5 c2 Rxc5 Kb6 Rxc2 dxc2 Rc1 Kc5 Rxc2+ Nc4 Ra2 b4 Ra6 Kd5 g4 Ne5
12 00:02 5.406.001 2.703.000 -0.01 g4 12 00:03 7.698.972 2.566.324 +0.19 g4 Nc4 Rh3 Nd2+ Ke1 c4 Rh6 Nb3 Rxe6 Nxa1 Re8 Rxe8
13 00:04 11.796.404 2.483.453 +0.21 g4 Nc4 Rh3 Nd2+ Kg2 c4 Rh6 Nb3 Rah1 c2 Rxe6 d2 Re8 Rxe8 Rd1 cxc2
14 00:08 21.327.054 2.585.097 +0.58 g4 c2 g5 d2 Ke2 d1Q+ Rhxd1
15 00:21 57.417.305 2.734.157 +1.03 g4 Nc4 Rh3 Ne5 f4 c2 Ke1 Nxg4 Rxd3 Nf6 Rh3 Nd5 Kd2 Nxf4 Re8
16 00:31 85.060.570 2.743.889 +1.25 g4 Nc4 Rh3 Ne5 f4 c2 Ke1 Nxg4 Rxd3 Nf6 Rh3 Nd5 Kd2 Nxe7 Kxc2 Nd5 Rah1 Nxf4
17 00:54 147.895.224 2.738.800 +1.41 g4 Nc4 Rh3 Ne5 Re3 c2 Ke1 Rxh7 Nxe7 Rh1+ Kd2 Rxa1 Ka8 e8 Ka7 exe7 Ka6 d6 Kb5 b8 Ka5

[Howard E]

[D] r1r1q1k1/6p1/3b1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp5/2P4P/R1B2QP1/R5K1 w - - 0 1

i7-920
512 hash
vista 64 bit premium

ProDeo Ares:
13 00:01 2.472.708 2.472.708 +0.80 Qb6 Rxa2 Rxa2 Bc7 Qe6+ Kh8 Ra6 Rd8 Qxe8+ Rxe8 d6 Bb8 Be4 Kh7 Kf2
14 00:02 5.005.809 2.502.904 +0.80 Qb6 Rxa2 Rxa2 Bc7 Qe6+ Kh8 Ra6 Rd8 Qxe8+ Rxe8 Ra7 Bb6+ Kh2 Bxa7 d6 e4 Bxe4
15 00:05 12.439.552 2.369.438 +0.89 Qb6 Rxa2 Rxa2 Bc7 Qe6+ Kf8 Kf1 Rb8 Ra7 Bb6 Qxe8+ Rxe8 Rb7 Be3 Ke2 Bf4 Rxb5 e4
16 00:11 30.352.561 2.759.323 +0.82 Qb6 Rxa2 Rxa2 Bb8 Qe6+ Kf8 Be4 Rd8 Qb6 Qd7 Ra5 Bc7 Qc5+ Qe7 Qxe7+ Kxe7 Rxb5
17 00:27 72.534.204 2.590.507 +0.67 Qb6 Rxa2 Rxa2 Ra8 Rxa8 Qxa8 Qxd6 Qa1+ Kh2 Qf1 Qb8+ Kh7 Qxb5 Qf4+ Kg1 Qd2 Qxc4 Qxc2 Qc7 Qd1+ Kh2 Qxd5 Kg1
18 00:52 137.111.390 2.636.757 +0.66 Qb6 Rxa2 Rxa2 Ra8 Rxa8 Qxa8 Qxd6 Qa2 Be4 Qe2 Bf3 Qe1+ Kh2 Qe3 Qe6+
19 01:31 245.688.437 2.670.526 +0.32 Qb6 Rxa2 Rxa2 Bc7 Qe6+ Kh8 Ra6 Rd8 Qxe8+ Rxe8 d6 Bd8 Be4 Re7 dxe7 Bxe7 Bc6 Bxb4
19 13:17 2.009.822.431 1.943.735 +0.50 Be4 Qd8 Ra6 Rxa6 Rxa6 Ra8 Rxa8 Qxa8 Qb6

[Werewolf]

Love the puzzles Ed.
I can't seem to get a single version of Pro Deo (your last prog?) to work in chessbase under vista 64.

Is there any way round this?

[Howard E]

I load prodeo with winboard protocol using Arena. It works with vista (premium 64 bit). In fact other older non-chess programs work with vista also. I was surprised given some of the negative Vista press.

Have you tried prodeo with Arena?