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Is this positions drawn ??

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Dann Corbit

Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 5125
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Post subject: Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:42 pm

Terry McCracken wrote:

smirobth wrote:

Dann Corbit wrote:

Terry McCracken wrote:

Uri Blass wrote:

Terry McCracken wrote:

Uri Blass wrote:

I agree that this is more convincing and can be used for what I consider as a real proof that I am lazy to construct(I still do not consider it as a proof inspite of the fact that it convinced me).

I think that black even does not need the quare a6 and can do fine even on 7*7 board with only c6 and b6

In order to construct a proof that I am too lazy to do we pracitcally need simply to divide the possible pair of squares of white king and white queen to 12 classes and give the corresponding squares of black king and rook in every class.

After this we need to prove that after white does a move in one of the classes black can capture the queen or make a move that goes to one of the classes.

Uri

Huh??

Robin gave proof, and it's quite simple Rolling Eyes

Page One.... http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13872&start=0

Robin's post is convincing but I do not consider it as a proof.
I simply disagree with you about the meaning of the word proof.

Robin gave a strategy to draw the game.
A proof should prove that the strategy is really possible and that white cannot do something different that I did not imagine.

I am not sure if we practically need to do what I suggested and it is only one way to prove the draw.

Thinking about again it may be more simpler to prove that the strategy that Robin suggested is possible but it needs proof.

Here is part of the proof that you need to write in order to prove it based on my standards and not only in order to convince me(I added comments to Robin comments inside the ().

2) If the king is in check, move out of check to any one of the squares h7, g8, h8(possible but need proof because the queen may control all 3 squares from g7 and if the white king is at f8 white is winning
the white king can never go to f8 but in order to prove that black draw we need to mention the possible squares of the white king and prove that white cannot escape them in every one of the cases)

3) If the rook is not on f6 move the rook to f6(possible assuming the rook is not pinned but the rook cannot be pinned when the black king is at h7 g8 h8 and the rook is at f6 f2 c6 b6 a6).

Uri

Uri, George posted a link above, the utility you need for your final proof is
Freezer.

If this can't give a proof, then you'll have to run a hundred plys full width!

In ten years that might not be a problem Wink

Terry

It will be a proof when freezer is run against the problem and verifies the result. Until then, it is only a very good hypothesis.

Hi Dan,
Even Freezer will not generate a true proof, in the strict mathematical sense, which seems to be what you and Uri seek. This is not only because Freezer's source is not open, as Uri mentioned, but also because Freezer does not generate a full database of all possible relevant positions. In order to keep the computation size and eventual database size manageable, Freezer allows and often even requires users to define rules that will reduce the database computation to levels manageable by Freezer. In the specific position in question at least some rules are required by Freezer. Depending on what rules a user defines the _exact_ same position might result in an evaluation of "White wins", "Draw" or "Black wins", so clearly specifying these rules properly is essential. A savvy Freezer user will be good at defining rules which will result in an accurate conclusion, but this hardly constitutes a true proof in the mathematical sense, any more than my move generating algorithm did.

P.S. I ran Freezer on the position in question. The conclusion Freezer/I reached was "Draw". However I do not have a complete set of 6 man tablebases and I had to define several rules for Freezer to use in its database generation. The first of the rules I defined was "If White's queen is captured" = draw.

Robin, you improvised and even removed the Black h6 pawn and EGTBs returned a draw. What , more proof do Dan and Uri need??

http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html

It is possible for more pieces to be a hindrance and cause zugzwang. So removing a piece demonstrates nothing.

[D]8/8/8/8/8/NK1N4/6p1/k7 w - - bm Nb4; dm 2;

[D]8/8/8/8/8/NK1N4/8/k7 w - - c0 "pawn removed = stalemate, pawn there = loss";

Display posts from previous:

Subject	Author	Date/Time
Is this positions drawn ??	M ANSARI	Fri May 18, 2007 8:15 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Tobias Lagemann	Fri May 18, 2007 8:53 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Fri May 18, 2007 9:01 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Uri Blass	Fri May 18, 2007 9:17 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Robin Smith	Fri May 18, 2007 9:35 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Alex Brown	Fri May 18, 2007 9:47 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Uri Blass	Fri May 18, 2007 10:29 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Torstein	Wed May 23, 2007 12:33 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Paulo Soares	Fri May 18, 2007 10:18 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	nuff	Fri May 18, 2007 10:27 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Paulo Soares	Fri May 18, 2007 10:34 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Uri Blass	Fri May 18, 2007 10:39 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Terry McCracken	Fri May 18, 2007 10:53 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Dann Corbit	Sat May 19, 2007 12:27 am
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Terry McCracken	Sat May 19, 2007 4:57 am
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Dann Corbit	Sat May 19, 2007 6:13 am
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Terry McCracken	Sat May 19, 2007 4:14 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	George Tsavdaris	Sat May 19, 2007 4:52 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Terry McCracken	Sat May 19, 2007 6:15 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	George Tsavdaris	Sat May 19, 2007 6:20 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Terry McCracken	Sat May 19, 2007 7:43 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Uri Blass	Sat May 19, 2007 6:31 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Terry McCracken	Sat May 19, 2007 7:39 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Alessandro Scotti	Sat May 19, 2007 9:10 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Terry McCracken	Sun May 20, 2007 3:27 am
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Dann Corbit	Wed May 23, 2007 4:17 am
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	M ANSARI	Wed May 23, 2007 6:53 am
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	George Tsavdaris	Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 pm
Re: ComputerChess is bad for you !!	Dann Corbit	Wed May 23, 2007 6:19 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Uri Blass	Fri May 18, 2007 10:36 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble	nuff	Fri May 18, 2007 10:41 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble	Uri Blass	Fri May 18, 2007 11:50 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble	Graham Banks	Fri May 18, 2007 11:59 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble	Uri Blass	Sat May 19, 2007 12:03 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ?? Save us all some trouble	Graham Banks	Sat May 19, 2007 12:13 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Robin Smith	Sat May 19, 2007 4:00 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Uri Blass	Sat May 19, 2007 6:14 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Sat May 19, 2007 4:17 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Uri Blass	Sat May 19, 2007 5:13 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Sat May 19, 2007 6:09 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Dann Corbit	Mon May 21, 2007 9:51 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Robin Smith	Tue May 22, 2007 3:15 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Dann Corbit	Tue May 22, 2007 4:02 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Tue May 22, 2007 4:20 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Robin Smith	Tue May 22, 2007 10:24 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Tue May 22, 2007 4:29 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Dann Corbit	Wed May 23, 2007 11:42 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	J. Prata	Thu May 24, 2007 12:19 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Dann Corbit	Thu May 24, 2007 12:42 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Robin Smith	Thu May 24, 2007 1:20 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Thu May 24, 2007 2:29 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Robin Smith	Thu May 24, 2007 3:21 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Thu May 24, 2007 4:29 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Uri Blass	Thu May 24, 2007 7:20 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Thu May 24, 2007 2:25 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	glorfindel	Fri May 25, 2007 1:38 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Fri May 25, 2007 2:11 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	glorfindel	Fri May 25, 2007 3:04 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Fri May 25, 2007 5:04 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Robin Smith	Fri May 25, 2007 2:35 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	glorfindel	Fri May 25, 2007 3:25 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Richard Sutherland	Fri May 25, 2007 3:50 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Fri May 25, 2007 4:09 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Robin Smith	Fri May 25, 2007 4:50 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Fri May 25, 2007 5:05 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Dann Corbit	Fri May 25, 2007 2:23 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Terry McCracken	Tue May 22, 2007 4:19 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Dann Corbit	Wed May 23, 2007 10:56 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Paulo Soares	Fri May 18, 2007 10:15 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Uri Blass	Fri May 18, 2007 10:26 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Paulo Soares	Fri May 18, 2007 10:58 pm
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Uri Blass	Sat May 19, 2007 12:01 am
Re: Is this positions drawn ??	Paulo Soares	Sat May 19, 2007 12:24 am
Homer can solve fortress draws	Daniel Mehrmann	Wed May 23, 2007 11:40 pm

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