Positional draw?

[peter]

I will look further into your other line, but to see how propensive to different fortress/positional draws the position is, just let me mention a very easy draw I missed in the real game continuation after black's g5:

Lyudmil, if we want to talk about certain positions, moves and lines, I need one thing:
Move- numbers.
A diagram is useful, if you don't have a GUI in which you anyhow have the virtual board according to the moves, if the line and the move- number is right.
I don't need diagrams, if I have a board and a move- list with move- numbers.
I'm more used to read notations without board but to play with diagrams only.

So please give move- lists, if we talk about lines we both know quite well after some postings, they don't have to be from the very starting position, just always only as long as the last deviation is away, but even if it's about single moves, give a move- number according to the move, then I don't need so much diagrams, as useful as they are (or could be) as we have seen lately too.


Now for the examples of drawn positions and fortresses you give:
I know quite well, that White has good chances to build up a fortress here, but only if Black doesn's prevent from that, Black has to blunder, to let a white fortress happen, as I said, there is a principle in the planning and playing of Black, see here.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=56059

The principle: to prevent White's fortress the black King goes Queenside, threatening to support the re- exchange of the qualtiy against the white a-Pawn, to hold against that White has to come with the Rook and in some lines even with the King to the Qeenside too and that than opens the way for the black g-Pawn to march again, if it is on g3 the way for a black Rook over g4 is open.

Now, let's talk about the positions and the lines according to this thread, not about any other games you played or wanted to play. And if you start your posting with
“I will look further into your other line”, please do so, before we go on talking.

Having looked for some alternatives for both sides interactively, I can show an even shorter Black winning main line here to you, maybe it does make it clearer to be understood, how this works for Black: (as a matter of fact, I can show you quite a .pgn already as well, but I don't want to lose your interest )

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 Bc5 4.Be2 d6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0–0 0–0 7.d3 a5 8.Bg5 h6 9.Bd2 Bg4 10.h3 Bxf3 11.Bxf3 Nd4 12.g3 c6 13.Bg2 b5 14.Kh1 b4 15.Ne2 Qe7 16.Nxd4 Bxd4 17.Rb1 Nd7 18.Qe2 Rab8 19.f4 exf4 20.gxf4 Nc5 21.b3 Rb6 22.Qf3 Ra6 23.Qg3 Qf6 24.Rbd1 Re8 25.Be1 Nd7 26.Bf3 c5 27.Bg4 Nf8 28.Rb1 a4 29.Bd1 axb3 30.Bxb3 Rea8 31.Qh4 Ne6 32.Qxf6 Bxf6 33.Kg2 Nd4 34.Bf2 Ne2 35.Be1 Bc3 36.Rf2 Nd4 37.Bxc3 bxc3 38.Rc1 c2 39.h4 g6 40.Rcxc2 Nxc2 41.Rxc2

41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7 54.Ke3 Kb6 55.Rb2 Ka5 56.Bd1 Rh7 57.Rb8 Rg7 58.Rb5+ Ka6 59.Rb2 Rb7 60.Bb3 Ka5


After automatic backward solving of this line by SF on 24 threads with 32Gb hash and 5'/move, I got only one alternative move although the "blunder- boundary" was set to 0 cp, that was

51.Rd2 instead of 51.f5.
The output- line of that alternative move stored was continued with 51...Rhb8 52. Bb3 f5, but given the 51.Rd2 the output changed to


[d]r6r/4k3/3p1p2/2p4p/2P1PPpP/3PK3/P2R4/3B4 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 120415 64 POPCNT:

51...f5 52.Kf2 Kf6 53.Kg2 Rae8 54.Re2 Rb8 55.Bb3 Ra8 56.Kg3 Rhb8 57.Re3 Ra7 58.Re1 Rd8 59.Re2 Rf8 60.Rb2 Rb8 61.Re2 Ra3 62.Kf2 Raa8 63.Kg3 Rf8 64.Re1 Rfe8 65.Kf2 Ra7 66.Kg3 Ke6 67.Re2 Rb8 68.Re1 Rba8 69.Kg2 Rg8 70.Kg3 Rc8 71.Rd1 Ra3 72.Re1 Rca8 73.Re2 R3a7 74.Rd2 Rd7 75.Rb2 Kf6 76.Re2 Rb7
-+ (-1.91) Depth: 51/62 00:12:50 15375MN, tb=13006370


So we are at evals of about 200 cp there, at the starting position of Louis' thread at about 140 and at the end of the line at about 350 cp.

No other alternative move found by SF at automatic backward solving with good hardware- time then the one above with an yet also already higher eval than at the starting position of about 130% of the lower one.

Eval- raise of about 250% from the starting position to the end of the line.

Even if that doesn't prove anything for sure, to somebody used to deal with engine- outputs and - evals it does say a thing, doesn't it?

But more relevant than such: is there any doubt that the position at the end of the line is clearly won for Black?

[d]8/1r6/3p1p2/k1p2P1p/2P1P1pP/rB1PK3/PR6/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 120415 64 POPCNT:

61.Rb1 g3 62.Rg1 Rg7 63.Bd1 Rxa2 64.Bxh5 Rh2 65.Bg6 Rxh4 66.Kf3 Rh2 67.Rb1 g2 68.Kg3 g1R+ 69.Rxg1 Rd2 70.Kf4 Rxd3 71.Rb1 Rd4 72.Rb5+ Ka4 73.Rb8 Rxc4 74.Rf8 d5 75.Rxf6 Rxe4+ 76.Kg5 d4 77.Rd6 Re2 78.Kh6 Rc7 79.f6 Rf2 80.Kg5 Kb3 81.Kg4 Rf1 82.Bd3 Rg1+ 83.Kf5 c4 84.Be4 d3 85.Rd8 Rf1+ 86.Ke5 Rf2 87.Bg6 d2
-+ (-3.63) Depth: 43/64 00:04:34 5087MN, tb=2189713

And then, if you really want to come to a mutual result with me about the position of this thread of some relevance as to prove anything:
As I offered to Louis already here

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 47&t=56059

That’s of course open to you too: we can easily play one to three corr.- games with TC of your choice by private message or by email, with me playing Black and you White from the starting- position of this thread.
Up to three, me always being the white one, if you don’t take much too much time for the first one, in that case let’s stick to a single one. (I’d say 1 month should be enough for the first one, I think I was ready to win or draw in a week at most, I simply don’t count the possibility to lose with Black.)
Then we come back to the public forum with the result(s) but I for sure will not start playing a “game” with you posting by posting any more.

[peter]

51.Rd2 instead of 51.f5.
The output- line of that alternative move stored was continued with 51...Rhb8 52. Bb3 f5, but given the 51.Rd2 the output changed to


[d]r6r/4k3/3p1p2/2p4p/2P1PPpP/3PK3/P2R4/3B4 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 120415 64 POPCNT:

51...f5 52.Kf2 Kf6 53.Kg2 Rae8 54.Re2 Rb8 55.Bb3 Ra8 56.Kg3 Rhb8 57.Re3 Ra7 58.Re1 Rd8 59.Re2 Rf8 60.Rb2 Rb8 61.Re2 Ra3 62.Kf2 Raa8 63.Kg3 Rf8 64.Re1 Rfe8 65.Kf2 Ra7 66.Kg3 Ke6 67.Re2 Rb8 68.Re1 Rba8 69.Kg2 Rg8 70.Kg3 Rc8 71.Rd1 Ra3 72.Re1 Rca8 73.Re2 R3a7 74.Rd2 Rd7 75.Rb2 Kf6 76.Re2 Rb7
-+ (-1.91) Depth: 51/62 00:12:50 15375MN, tb=13006370

That output of course was meant only as for the the very first move of the pv and the eval, forget the rest or we can easily look at the lines from there onward interactively.
But that wouldn't be much work to be done, I have it in my .pgn and I already posted it in the very first posting of mine in this thread:

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/posting. ... e&p=620674

...
41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Tg2 Tg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Th2 Ta5 46.Kf3 Taa8 47.Th1 h5

48.Kg3 Th8 49.Kf2 g5 50.Kf3 g4+ 51.Kg2 f5 52.Tb1 Thf8 53.Tf1 Tab8 54.Kg3 Tb4 55.Td1 Te8 56.Kf2 Kf6 57.Ke3 Tg8 58.Tg1 g3 59.exf5 Kxf5 60.Kf3 Tb7 61.La4 Tg4 62.Txg3 Txf4+ 63.Ke2 Te7+ 64.Kd2 Txh4 65.Tg2 Ta7 66.Lb3 Tg4 67.Tf2+ Tf4 68.Th2 h4 69.Ke3 Tg4 70.Kf2 Kg5

That practically transposes, btw it was the line I gave to you as the last one in the other thread already.

It's not quite the same, but it is as for the relevant moves, 51...f5 is possible again in the latest line given as well as it was in this first one above, Black has therefore the easier way to break through with g4- g3 when the black f- Pawn isn't blocked from White's 51.f5

[peter]

Look here, Lyudmil, please, and react accordingly:

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 88&t=56059

Lyudmil, if we want to talk about certain positions, moves and lines, I need one thing:
Move- numbers.
...
That’s of course open to you too: we can easily play one to three corr.- games with TC of your choice by private message or by email, with me playing Black and you White from the starting- position of this thread.
Up to three, me always being the white one, if you don’t take much too much time for the first one, in that case let’s stick to a single one. (I’d say 1 month should be enough for the first one, I think I was ready to win or draw in a week at most, I simply don’t count the possibility to lose with Black.)
Then we come back to the public forum with the result(s) but I for sure will not start playing a “game” with you posting by posting any more.

Of course, I meant me always being the black one, not the white, typo in the quote above.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I will look further into your other line, but to see how propensive to different fortress/positional draws the position is, just let me mention a very easy draw I missed in the real game continuation after black's g5:

Lyudmil, if we want to talk about certain positions, moves and lines, I need one thing:
Move- numbers.
A diagram is useful, if you don't have a GUI in which you anyhow have the virtual board according to the moves, if the line and the move- number is right.
I don't need diagrams, if I have a board and a move- list with move- numbers.
I'm more used to read notations without board but to play with diagrams only.

So please give move- lists, if we talk about lines we both know quite well after some postings, they don't have to be from the very starting position, just always only as long as the last deviation is away, but even if it's about single moves, give a move- number according to the move, then I don't need so much diagrams, as useful as they are (or could be) as we have seen lately too.


Now for the examples of drawn positions and fortresses you give:
I know quite well, that White has good chances to build up a fortress here, but only if Black doesn's prevent from that, Black has to blunder, to let a white fortress happen, as I said, there is a principle in the planning and playing of Black, see here.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=56059

The principle: to prevent White's fortress the black King goes Queenside, threatening to support the re- exchange of the qualtiy against the white a-Pawn, to hold against that White has to come with the Rook and in some lines even with the King to the Qeenside too and that than opens the way for the black g-Pawn to march again, if it is on g3 the way for a black Rook over g4 is open.

Now, let's talk about the positions and the lines according to this thread, not about any other games you played or wanted to play. And if you start your posting with
“I will look further into your other line”, please do so, before we go on talking.

Having looked for some alternatives for both sides interactively, I can show an even shorter Black winning main line here to you, maybe it does make it clearer to be understood, how this works for Black: (as a matter of fact, I can show you quite a .pgn already as well, but I don't want to lose your interest )

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 Bc5 4.Be2 d6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0–0 0–0 7.d3 a5 8.Bg5 h6 9.Bd2 Bg4 10.h3 Bxf3 11.Bxf3 Nd4 12.g3 c6 13.Bg2 b5 14.Kh1 b4 15.Ne2 Qe7 16.Nxd4 Bxd4 17.Rb1 Nd7 18.Qe2 Rab8 19.f4 exf4 20.gxf4 Nc5 21.b3 Rb6 22.Qf3 Ra6 23.Qg3 Qf6 24.Rbd1 Re8 25.Be1 Nd7 26.Bf3 c5 27.Bg4 Nf8 28.Rb1 a4 29.Bd1 axb3 30.Bxb3 Rea8 31.Qh4 Ne6 32.Qxf6 Bxf6 33.Kg2 Nd4 34.Bf2 Ne2 35.Be1 Bc3 36.Rf2 Nd4 37.Bxc3 bxc3 38.Rc1 c2 39.h4 g6 40.Rcxc2 Nxc2 41.Rxc2

41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7 54.Ke3 Kb6 55.Rb2 Ka5 56.Bd1 Rh7 57.Rb8 Rg7 58.Rb5+ Ka6 59.Rb2 Rb7 60.Bb3 Ka5


After automatic backward solving of this line by SF on 24 threads with 32Gb hash and 5'/move, I got only one alternative move although the "blunder- boundary" was set to 0 cp, that was

51.Rd2 instead of 51.f5.
The output- line of that alternative move stored was continued with 51...Rhb8 52. Bb3 f5, but given the 51.Rd2 the output changed to


[d]r6r/4k3/3p1p2/2p4p/2P1PPpP/3PK3/P2R4/3B4 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 120415 64 POPCNT:

51...f5 52.Kf2 Kf6 53.Kg2 Rae8 54.Re2 Rb8 55.Bb3 Ra8 56.Kg3 Rhb8 57.Re3 Ra7 58.Re1 Rd8 59.Re2 Rf8 60.Rb2 Rb8 61.Re2 Ra3 62.Kf2 Raa8 63.Kg3 Rf8 64.Re1 Rfe8 65.Kf2 Ra7 66.Kg3 Ke6 67.Re2 Rb8 68.Re1 Rba8 69.Kg2 Rg8 70.Kg3 Rc8 71.Rd1 Ra3 72.Re1 Rca8 73.Re2 R3a7 74.Rd2 Rd7 75.Rb2 Kf6 76.Re2 Rb7
-+ (-1.91) Depth: 51/62 00:12:50 15375MN, tb=13006370


So we are at evals of about 200 cp there, at the starting position of Louis' thread at about 140 and at the end of the line at about 350 cp.

No other alternative move found by SF at automatic backward solving with good hardware- time then the one above with an yet also already higher eval than at the starting position of about 130% of the lower one.

Eval- raise of about 250% from the starting position to the end of the line.

Even if that doesn't prove anything for sure, to somebody used to deal with engine- outputs and - evals it does say a thing, doesn't it?

But more relevant than such: is there any doubt that the position at the end of the line is clearly won for Black?

[d]8/1r6/3p1p2/k1p2P1p/2P1P1pP/rB1PK3/PR6/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 120415 64 POPCNT:

61.Rb1 g3 62.Rg1 Rg7 63.Bd1 Rxa2 64.Bxh5 Rh2 65.Bg6 Rxh4 66.Kf3 Rh2 67.Rb1 g2 68.Kg3 g1R+ 69.Rxg1 Rd2 70.Kf4 Rxd3 71.Rb1 Rd4 72.Rb5+ Ka4 73.Rb8 Rxc4 74.Rf8 d5 75.Rxf6 Rxe4+ 76.Kg5 d4 77.Rd6 Re2 78.Kh6 Rc7 79.f6 Rf2 80.Kg5 Kb3 81.Kg4 Rf1 82.Bd3 Rg1+ 83.Kf5 c4 84.Be4 d3 85.Rd8 Rf1+ 86.Ke5 Rf2 87.Bg6 d2
-+ (-3.63) Depth: 43/64 00:04:34 5087MN, tb=2189713

And then, if you really want to come to a mutual result with me about the position of this thread of some relevance as to prove anything:
As I offered to Louis already here

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 47&t=56059

That’s of course open to you too: we can easily play one to three corr.- games with TC of your choice by private message or by email, with me playing Black and you White from the starting- position of this thread.
Up to three, me always being the white one, if you don’t take much too much time for the first one, in that case let’s stick to a single one. (I’d say 1 month should be enough for the first one, I think I was ready to win or draw in a week at most, I simply don’t count the possibility to lose with Black.)
Then we come back to the public forum with the result(s) but I for sure will not start playing a “game” with you posting by posting any more.

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

[peter]

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.


Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Well, to make this thread and the long game we played with SF at least a tiny little bit useful, below some positions that could have arisen in the actual game with positional/fortress draws.

Those are not under discussion, I am certain they are draws.
Well, they are not exactly 10, but a large number anyway.

Maybe some engine authors could check those positions with their engines.

[d]1r6/r7/1k1p1p2/2p2P1p/2P1P1pP/1BKP2R1/P7/8 w - - 0 10

white just moves its king from c3 to b2 and back; if necessary, and when there is not a black rook on the g file, the white rook on g3 can also move, but otherwise should block the g4 black passer all the time, or black could play g4-g3 beneficially in some lines

[d]r5r1/5p2/3p4/2p3pP/2PkP1K1/1B1P2R1/P7/8 b - - 0 16

white just moves its rook from g3 to h3, and then from h3 to f3 and back; d3 pawn is defended, a sacrifice on b3 leads to full equality, and there is no other way to break into the white bastion

[d]1r6/6r1/3pk3/2p5/2P5/1BKP4/5R2/8 w - - 0 1

that is almost certainly a positional draw RR vs RB with no pawns is draw, and the 2 pairs of pawns for each side are blocked in a way and defended that makes impossible taking advantage of them

[d]8/6k1/3p1p2/2p4R/2P1P1BP/r2PK3/7r/8 w - - 7 26

Louis already posted that one: a typical positional draw

[d]8/8/2Bpkp2/2p5/P1P1P3/2KP4/8/6r1 b - a3 0 3

again, no progress

etc., etc., too many of them, the position is just propensive to such issues

Whether black could avoid those with perfect play is not precisely the topic here.

Again, sorry for the dull game.

[peter]

Again, sorry for the dull game.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 97&t=56059

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.


Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

Lyudmil, are you still here?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Again, sorry for the dull game.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 97&t=56059

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.


Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

Lyudmil, are you still here?

Just left for Mars.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.


Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

Man, can not you transpose a bit: 55. Ke3 instead of Rg3, and only after that Rg3?

But that is not important, as the whole line is very far from optimal for both sides.

Here I just wanted to say that the blocked position is a draw.

[peter]

I go with your line here: 41...Kf8 42.Kf3 Ke7 43.Rg2 Rg8 44.Ke3 f6 45.Rh2 Ra5 46.Kf3 Raa8 47.Rh1 h5 48.Ke3 Rh8 49.Rh2 g5 50.Bd1 g4 51.f5 Ra3 52.Bb3 Kd7 53.Kf4 Kc7, and then on move 54 I play Rg2, followed by Rg3, blocking the g4 pawn; then the white king goes to c3 and just moves from c3 to b2 and back.

I do not know what is so difficult to understand.

That's not difficult to understand at all, Lyudmil, because of the line with move- numbers, even if that was my one and the moves of yours to be continued but one are missing them again, that could be because they have no moves for the black side to count.


Well, to show my will to serve, for the very last time I will react to a single move from you and a plan instead of a line.
If I may translate your plan to a line of mine accordingly:

54. Rg2 Kb6 55. Rg3 Ka5 56. Ke3 Kb4
[d]7r/8/3p1p2/2p2P1p/1kP1P1pP/rB1PK1R1/P7/8 w - - 0 57

Oops, Lyudmil, your plan isn't to be played, your King is too slow, what now?

Man, can not you transpose a bit: 55. Ke3 instead of Rg3, and only after that Rg3?

But that is not important, as the whole line is very far from optimal for both sides.

And what does transposition change as for the position in the end of the line?
I thought if some moves transpose to each other, that means leading to the same position in different move- orders, no?

And if you didn't like the line, why did you follow it to prove me your in this transposed or not transposed own moves already refuted draw?


Lyudmil, my offer for the one or the other corr.- game with TC and medium of youre choice (if you send me a private message, we can play on by that means, or I'll give you my email- adress) is still standing, well understood: offline medium, as corr. always has to be, no matter if "blitz- corr." or long TC.

I really don't want to go on staying online here just not to miss any of your great postings.

So send me pm if you want to play or leave me alone in Louis' thread.