A historical game

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I think 15...f4 and 15...Nf6 are about equal. Black's setup is far from ideal of a KID attacking setup, whereas White has already made some progress on queenside. At first I thought that Nb3 is the key move (simultaneously preparing Nfd2 and c5), but then Black has just enough time to get g5-g4 at about the same time White gest c5xd6.

15...f4 16.Nb3 g5 16.h3 Ng6 17.Nfd2 h5 18.f3 Nf6 19.c5 and now either 19...Qd7 or 19...g4!?

Still, 15...f4 in this piece setup feels a bit premature. It takes the pressure off White's pawn chain, thus giving White free hand on the queenside. However the line that I have just given shows that normal moves are not enough to prove it. That leaves only

15...f4 16.c5!

Black really cannot take the pawn:

16... dxc5? 17. bxc5 Nxc5 18. Ba3 Nd7 19. Qb3

So the correct line might be something like:

15...f4 16.c5! Nf6 17.Nc4 g5 18.h3 Ng6 when White at has interesting options of 19. Qb3 and of delaying 19. Nh2

SF does not consider c5.
c5 leaves unguarded the b5 square, and black takes advantage of that, playing Nc8-a7-b5.

With your line, something like this could arise:

[d]r3q1rk/1p1n2b1/p2p4/Pn1Pp1pp/1PN1Pp2/7P/1B1N1PP1/2RQR1K1 w - - 0 11

I think all the lines more or less transpose, leaving black with advantage in all cases. But black should be very careful when to attack on the king side and when to care for neutralising white breaks on the queen side and sacrifices in the center, on e5 for example.

The exact move order is very important, but in all lines I think Kh8, Rg8, Qe8-g6, as well as Nc8, warding off c5 and b5 breaks, are necessary key moves.

When I analysed this a bit, I tried different variations with the help of SF, and in the predominant majority of them, if not all, black had the upper hand. So that I really think the position is won for black or at least black has considerable advantage.

It is an irony that SF evaluates the position before 15...f4 with some 40cps white edge, and then immediately after f4 it thinks white's edge has increased to more than 80cps... As you see, whenever an engine thinks one side gets big advantage after a certain move, that is a clear indication the opponent should play exactly that move, as it seems to be good.

I am a poor searcher, miss many tactical things, but I evaluate positions much better than engines. So that I do not need to search a lot to find the best move: I just check the root position, and of the existing 20-30 moves, 5 of them reasonable, I pick up simply the move with the best score.

For me it is obvious, without doing any search, black is much better in the initial position.

[PK]

Lyudmil, what about White playing Na3 in my line after Black plays Na7? The plan is always the same - break on the queenside before Black breaks on the kingside. So Qb3 and b4-b5, interposing defensive moves on kingside and cxd6 if it ever becomes useful.

As for Stockfish not playing c5 - it might be just the same as Stockfish not playing ...f4. Apparently it has not read "Pawn chains" by Nicolas Crouch.

[peter]

1... f4 2. Qb3 g5 3. h3 Nc8 4. Bb2 Kh8 5. Rec1 Rg8 6. Qd1 Qe8 7. Ne1 h5 8. Nd3 Nf6 9. f3 Bh6 10. Qe1

And did you realize White do go to b3 with Queen to return to d1 only 5 moves later, and didn't that make you doubt about the white "plans" and moves from the very start neither?

It seems to me one of these examples where you try around with engine's help to reach a wishful position against the engine playing alone and with much too little hardware- time.


That's why I asked for 16.h3 explicitely, as long as Black hasn't decided for Kg8 (h7)-Rg8, White doesn't have to decide for Qb3 neither, Qe2 is in case Black has made these moves the better place for it.

Even after your tempo loss with Qdb3-d1 Stockfish "sees" this, if you let it compute a little longer and deeper, and after a little forward- backward sliding, here is the MV- output at the given position after the first 6 moves of your game in depth 30:



[d]r1n1q1rk/1ppn2b1/p2p3p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/R1RQ2K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 171114 64 POPCNT:

1. +/- (0.80): 21.Ra3 Na7 22.g4 fxg3 23.fxg3 Rf8 24.Ne1 Kg8 25.Rb3 Nf6 26.Ng2 h5 27.Ne3 Nc8 28.c5 Qd7 29.g4 hxg4 30.hxg4 Ne7 31.Rbc3 Rac8 32.R1c2 Rf7 33.Rc4 Rff8 34.R2c3 c6 35.cxd6 Qxd6 36.Nf3
2. +/- (0.75): 21.Qe2 Na7 22.g4 fxg3 23.fxg3 Qh5 24.Kg2 Rgf8 25.g4 Qf7 26.Nf1 Nc8 27.Ng3 Ne7 28.Nf5 Nf6 29.Kg1 Nxf5 30.exf5 Kg8 31.Ra3 Qd7 32.Nd2 Rac8 33.Re1 c6 34.dxc6 Qxc6 35.Qg2 h5 36.Qxc6
3. +/= (0.70): 21.Rc3 Na7 22.g4 fxg3 23.fxg3 Nf6 24.Nh2 Rf8 25.Ng4 Qd7 26.Nf2 Rf7 27.Qe2 Raf8 28.Rf1 Nc8 29.Rcc1 Ne7 30.c5 Nh7 31.Kh2 Kg8 32.cxd6 cxd6 33.Nc4 Qb5 34.Qd2 Rf6 35.Kh1 h5 36.Kh2 Ng6 37.Qe1
4. +/= (0.68): 21.Nh2 Nf6 22.Qe2 h5 23.b5 Bf8 24.f3 Rg7 25.Bc3 Nd7 26.Rab1 Kg8 27.Nb3 Ne7 28.bxa6 Rxa6 29.c5 dxc5 30.Qb5 Qc8 31.Nxc5 Nxc5 32.Qxc5 Ng6 33.Qb5 Ba3 34.Rd1 b6 35.Qc4 Bc5+ 36.Kh1 Ra8 37.d6+ Kh8 38.axb6 Bxd6
5. +/= (0.59): 21.Qa4 Na7 22.Rab1 Bf6 23.Nh2 h5 24.f3 Bg7 25.Qb3 Qg6 26.Qd3 Rgd8 27.b5 Nc5 28.Qe2 axb5 29.cxb5 c6 30.bxc6 bxc6 31.Ba3 Nb5 32.Bxc5 dxc5 33.Nb3 Nd4 34.Nxd4 exd4 35.Rxc5 cxd5 36.Rb6 Qe8 37.a6 dxe4
6. +/= (0.59): 21.c5 Na7 22.Nc4 Qg6 23.cxd6 cxd6 24.Nfd2 Bf8 25.g4 Rg7 26.Rc2 Nf6 27.Nb6 Rd8 28.f3 h5 29.Rac1 Qh6 30.Qf1 Nb5 31.Rc8 Rxc8 32.Rxc8 Kg8 33.Qg2 Rc7 34.Rb8 Rc2 35.Nbc4 hxg4 36.hxg4 Qh4 37.Kf1
7. +/= (0.56): 21.Ne1 h5

21.Ne1 is only evaluated seventh best.
Qe2 is evalutate some higher, if you want to choose this move for White of course it's much better before going to b3 and back to d1.

An example how the game could have went on as well after 16. h3 Kh8?! 17. Bb2 Rg8 18. Qe2! you have here, it was Stockfish with White against Komodo with Black 12 cores each ponder on and 240'+30":


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. d3 d6 5. c3 g6 6. O-O Bg7 7. Nbd2 O-O 8. Re1 Re8 9. d4 Bd7 10. d5 Ne7 11. Bxd7 Nxd7 12. a4 h6 13. a5 a6 14. b4 f5 15. c4 f4 16. h3 Kh8 17. Bb2 Rg8 18. Qe2 Nc8 19. Rec1 Qe7 20. b5 Bf6 21. Ne1 h5 22. Nd3 Na7 23. Rab1

Which side is better here, Lyudmil?

[zullil]

As a rule, engines recognize good positions and play acceptable chess: only thing you should do is execute the first couple of moves for them.

Here's what SF says for the position following f4 for Black:

Code: Select all

1. h3 g5 2. Bb2 Nc8 3. Qe2 h5 4. g4 hxg4 5. hxg4 Ne7 6. c5 Ng6 7. Kg2 Nh8 8. cxd6 cxd6 9. Nc4 Qe7 10. Rh1 Nf7 11. Rac1 Rec8 12. Nfd2 Rc7 13. Qd3 Re8 14. Qh3 Nf6 15. Nb6 Nh8 16. Rxc7 Qxc7 17. Rc1 Qd8 18. f3 Ng6 19. Kg1 Nh4 20. Ndc4 Rf8 21. Qf1 Nd7 22. Qd3 Qe7 23. Rc2 Bf6 24. Nxd7 Qxd7 25. Qb3 Qe7 26. Nb6 0.91

So Stockfish sees an advantage for White, not Black.

By the way, SF prefers Re8 to f4 in the position you posted initially, giving the following line:

Code: Select all

info depth 40 seldepth 64 multipv 1 score cp -38 nodes 159680837842 nps 20582713 time 7758007 pv e8f8 a1a3 d7f6 c1b2 d8e8 e4f5 g6f5 a3b3 e8h5 d2f1 h5f7 f3h4 f7h5 d1h5 f6h5 g2g3 g7f6 h4g2 g8h7 f1d2 f8b8 b2c3 b7b5 a5b6 c7b6 f2f4 e5e4 g3g4 f6c3 b3c3 h5f6 g4f5 e7f5 d2e4 f6e4 e1e4 b8g8 c4c5 b6c5 b4c5 a8b8 e4e2 d6c5 c3c5 b8b1 g1f2 f5d4 e2e7 h7h8

[zullil]

For me it is obvious, without doing any search, black is much better in the initial position.

My undergraduate mathematics students are quite fond of "obvious". Usually they use it to support a claim they cannot prove.

Of course, this does not mean that the claims they make are wrong, just unsupported.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

1... f4 2. Qb3 g5 3. h3 Nc8 4. Bb2 Kh8 5. Rec1 Rg8 6. Qd1 Qe8 7. Ne1 h5 8. Nd3 Nf6 9. f3 Bh6 10. Qe1

And did you realize White do go to b3 with Queen to return to d1 only 5 moves later, and didn't that make you doubt about the white "plans" and moves from the very start neither?

It seems to me one of these examples where you try around with engine's help to reach a wishful position against the engine playing alone and with much too little hardware- time.


That's why I asked for 16.h3 explicitely, as long as Black hasn't decided for Kg8 (h7)-Rg8, White doesn't have to decide for Qb3 neither, Qe2 is in case Black has made these moves the better place for it.

Even after your tempo loss with Qdb3-d1 Stockfish "sees" this, if you let it compute a little longer and deeper, and after a little forward- backward sliding, here is the MV- output at the given position after the first 6 moves of your game in depth 30:



[d]r1n1q1rk/1ppn2b1/p2p3p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/R1RQ2K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 171114 64 POPCNT:

1. +/- (0.80): 21.Ra3 Na7 22.g4 fxg3 23.fxg3 Rf8 24.Ne1 Kg8 25.Rb3 Nf6 26.Ng2 h5 27.Ne3 Nc8 28.c5 Qd7 29.g4 hxg4 30.hxg4 Ne7 31.Rbc3 Rac8 32.R1c2 Rf7 33.Rc4 Rff8 34.R2c3 c6 35.cxd6 Qxd6 36.Nf3
2. +/- (0.75): 21.Qe2 Na7 22.g4 fxg3 23.fxg3 Qh5 24.Kg2 Rgf8 25.g4 Qf7 26.Nf1 Nc8 27.Ng3 Ne7 28.Nf5 Nf6 29.Kg1 Nxf5 30.exf5 Kg8 31.Ra3 Qd7 32.Nd2 Rac8 33.Re1 c6 34.dxc6 Qxc6 35.Qg2 h5 36.Qxc6
3. +/= (0.70): 21.Rc3 Na7 22.g4 fxg3 23.fxg3 Nf6 24.Nh2 Rf8 25.Ng4 Qd7 26.Nf2 Rf7 27.Qe2 Raf8 28.Rf1 Nc8 29.Rcc1 Ne7 30.c5 Nh7 31.Kh2 Kg8 32.cxd6 cxd6 33.Nc4 Qb5 34.Qd2 Rf6 35.Kh1 h5 36.Kh2 Ng6 37.Qe1
4. +/= (0.68): 21.Nh2 Nf6 22.Qe2 h5 23.b5 Bf8 24.f3 Rg7 25.Bc3 Nd7 26.Rab1 Kg8 27.Nb3 Ne7 28.bxa6 Rxa6 29.c5 dxc5 30.Qb5 Qc8 31.Nxc5 Nxc5 32.Qxc5 Ng6 33.Qb5 Ba3 34.Rd1 b6 35.Qc4 Bc5+ 36.Kh1 Ra8 37.d6+ Kh8 38.axb6 Bxd6
5. +/= (0.59): 21.Qa4 Na7 22.Rab1 Bf6 23.Nh2 h5 24.f3 Bg7 25.Qb3 Qg6 26.Qd3 Rgd8 27.b5 Nc5 28.Qe2 axb5 29.cxb5 c6 30.bxc6 bxc6 31.Ba3 Nb5 32.Bxc5 dxc5 33.Nb3 Nd4 34.Nxd4 exd4 35.Rxc5 cxd5 36.Rb6 Qe8 37.a6 dxe4
6. +/= (0.59): 21.c5 Na7 22.Nc4 Qg6 23.cxd6 cxd6 24.Nfd2 Bf8 25.g4 Rg7 26.Rc2 Nf6 27.Nb6 Rd8 28.f3 h5 29.Rac1 Qh6 30.Qf1 Nb5 31.Rc8 Rxc8 32.Rxc8 Kg8 33.Qg2 Rc7 34.Rb8 Rc2 35.Nbc4 hxg4 36.hxg4 Qh4 37.Kf1
7. +/= (0.56): 21.Ne1 h5

21.Ne1 is only evaluated seventh best.
Qe2 is evalutate some higher, if you want to choose this move for White of course it's much better before going to b3 and back to d1.

An example how the game could have went on as well after 16. h3 Kh8?! 17. Bb2 Rg8 18. Qe2! you have here, it was Stockfish with White against Komodo with Black 12 cores each ponder on and 240'+30":


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. d3 d6 5. c3 g6 6. O-O Bg7 7. Nbd2 O-O 8. Re1 Re8 9. d4 Bd7 10. d5 Ne7 11. Bxd7 Nxd7 12. a4 h6 13. a5 a6 14. b4 f5 15. c4 f4 16. h3 Kh8 17. Bb2 Rg8 18. Qe2 Nc8 19. Rec1 Qe7 20. b5 Bf6 21. Ne1 h5 22. Nd3 Na7 23. Rab1

Which side is better here, Lyudmil?

A simple answer: black is still better after Qe2. Only that I would necessarily play Bf6 instead of Na7, as suggested by SF and Komodo, to prevent even g4.

Btw., do you realize that playing g2-g4 is an attempt to save one's skin?

You do not understand one thing: engines do not see far too many things beyond their search horizon, which is sometimes very limited.

I can also add that all of the last 5 or 6 positions I posted on this forum had evaluation exactly as I suggested, and not the one suggested by engines, only that I did not have the time/opportunity/will to post consistent refutations to all posted analysis. It takes time, and I have also many other things to do.

Basing one's analysis just on the output of engines is easy, but do you understand how difficult it is to try to outplay 12-core engines like Komodo and SF entirely on your own?

Btw., 12 cores are nothing next to the power of intuition. (I am sure you recognize a famous Star Wars retort - 'The destruction of a planet is nothing next to the power of the Force)'

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Lyudmil, what about White playing Na3 in my line after Black plays Na7? The plan is always the same - break on the queenside before Black breaks on the kingside. So Qb3 and b4-b5, interposing defensive moves on kingside and cxd6 if it ever becomes useful.

As for Stockfish not playing c5 - it might be just the same as Stockfish not playing ...f4. Apparently it has not read "Pawn chains" by Nicolas Crouch.

Which line, Pawel?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

As a rule, engines recognize good positions and play acceptable chess: only thing you should do is execute the first couple of moves for them.

Here's what SF says for the position following f4 for Black:

Code: Select all

1. h3 g5 2. Bb2 Nc8 3. Qe2 h5 4. g4 hxg4 5. hxg4 Ne7 6. c5 Ng6 7. Kg2 Nh8 8. cxd6 cxd6 9. Nc4 Qe7 10. Rh1 Nf7 11. Rac1 Rec8 12. Nfd2 Rc7 13. Qd3 Re8 14. Qh3 Nf6 15. Nb6 Nh8 16. Rxc7 Qxc7 17. Rc1 Qd8 18. f3 Ng6 19. Kg1 Nh4 20. Ndc4 Rf8 21. Qf1 Nd7 22. Qd3 Qe7 23. Rc2 Bf6 24. Nxd7 Qxd7 25. Qb3 Qe7 26. Nb6 0.91

So Stockfish sees an advantage for White, not Black.

By the way, SF prefers Re8 to f4 in the position you posted initially, giving the following line:

Code: Select all

info depth 40 seldepth 64 multipv 1 score cp -38 nodes 159680837842 nps 20582713 time 7758007 pv e8f8 a1a3 d7f6 c1b2 d8e8 e4f5 g6f5 a3b3 e8h5 d2f1 h5f7 f3h4 f7h5 d1h5 f6h5 g2g3 g7f6 h4g2 g8h7 f1d2 f8b8 b2c3 b7b5 a5b6 c7b6 f2f4 e5e4 g3g4 f6c3 b3c3 h5f6 g4f5 e7f5 d2e4 f6e4 e1e4 b8g8 c4c5 b6c5 b4c5 a8b8 e4e2 d6c5 c3c5 b8b1 g1f2 f5d4 e2e7 h7h8

With your move order, black plays Nf6, and not Nc8.

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 4

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

For me it is obvious, without doing any search, black is much better in the initial position.

My undergraduate mathematics students are quite fond of "obvious". Usually they use it to support a claim they cannot prove.

Of course, this does not mean that the claims they make are wrong, just unsupported.

Your students are brilliant, Louis!

[PK]

I meant 15... f4 16.c5 line. You havent't given a move sequence, but a plan of placing N on b5 (reminiscent of some Benoni games) and a final position.