Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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shiv
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:03 am

Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by shiv »

stevenaaus wrote:
IGarcia wrote: After 17.Qf2 there is no need of engine to spot the 14...Qf6 error.

with engine: commentators spot the blunder immediately. (example chesbomb ones)
without engine: commentators also blunder (example Leko and Nepo, yesterday)


Its there not big problem with this, besides the ones with engine help show themselves as strong GM, much stronger than the one just blundered. :)

Personalty I do not like people pretending they are more what they really are. And sadly is what I observe in some game analysis. That is funny.

The point is: its very good we have the opportunity to hear only human ideas at live. They show not only the ideas on the game, also how tricky can be playing a super GM like Anand (or Gelfand)
I agree with Ignacio. We can all run our own computer analysis, but the point of view of other GMs is priceless in better understanding the game - which has nothing to do with computers.
Me too. I prefer them analyzing without engines. We need to cut them some slack though as they need to talk about the position and make humorous comments on video which is very hard to do and focus on serious chess as well. Their analysis is far worse than if the same time was allotted to them in a tournament game.

However, that being said, I certainly want to understand GM intuition even if its via substandard commentary. I want to improve at tournament chess myself and try not to worry about engines.
Hood
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Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by Hood »

JuLieN wrote:I beg to disagree. The first live broadcast used engines and was extremely boring to follow (we can use our own engines for the same result). They received complaints and switched to a "human brain" comment only since round two. And I find that much more entertaining. For various reasons:
1) Now they discuss the real logics behind the position, so it's very interesting and one learns a lot of things that way (Peter Leko is especially good as a commentator!) It's much more natural.
2) when they make errors, like yesterday, it's quite funny ;) And it doesn't harm the game, as we still have our own engines at home (or Houdini in the dedicated page on the website).

Of course, we're all different and have different views on things, but as for me I'm just pleased as it is now. :)
Totally agree. Engine analysis removes a dramatism of an event.
I prefer human analysis without engines either.
gerold
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Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by gerold »

Hood wrote:
JuLieN wrote:I beg to disagree. The first live broadcast used engines and was extremely boring to follow (we can use our own engines for the same result). They received complaints and switched to a "human brain" comment only since round two. And I find that much more entertaining. For various reasons:
1) Now they discuss the real logics behind the position, so it's very interesting and one learns a lot of things that way (Peter Leko is especially good as a commentator!) It's much more natural.
2) when they make errors, like yesterday, it's quite funny ;) And it doesn't harm the game, as we still have our own engines at home (or Houdini in the dedicated page on the website).

Of course, we're all different and have different views on things, but as for me I'm just pleased as it is now. :)
But you have to use engines to get the best move possible.
The GM's use engines to prepare for the games. They make engine moves in there games a lot of times. They can't do without engines in human chess. I guess its is better to talk about the GM games then talking about the 10 top clones.

Totally agree. Engine analysis removes a dramatism of an event.
I prefer human analysis without engines either.
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JuLieN
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Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by JuLieN »

[Event "World Chess Championship"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2012.05.23"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Gelfand, Boris"]
[Black "Anand, Viswanathan"]
[ECO "E54"]
[Result "*"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 c5 7.O-O dxc4
8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 b6 10.Bg5 Bb7 11.Qe2 Nbd7 12.Rac1 Rc8 13.Bd3
Bxc3 14.bxc3 Qc7 15.c4 Bxf3 16.Qxf3 Rfe8 17.Rfd1 h6 18.Bh4 Qd6
19.c5 bxc5 20.dxc5 Rxc5 21.Bh7+ Kxh7 22.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 23.Rd1 Rec8
24.h3 Ne5 25.Qe2 Ng6 26.Bxf6 gxf6 27.Rxc1 Rxc1+ 28.Kh2 Rc7 29.Qb2
*

[d]8/p1r2p1k/4ppnp/8/8/7P/PQ3PPK/8 b - - 3 29

Live: http://moscow2012.fide.com/en/

Image
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
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JuLieN
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Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by JuLieN »

[Event "World Chess Championship"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2012.05.23"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Gelfand, Boris"]
[Black "Anand, Viswanathan"]
[ECO "E54"]
[Result "*"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 c5 7.O-O dxc4
8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 b6 10.Bg5 Bb7 11.Qe2 Nbd7 12.Rac1 Rc8 13.Bd3
Bxc3 14.bxc3 Qc7 15.c4 Bxf3 16.Qxf3 Rfe8 17.Rfd1 h6 18.Bh4 Qd6
19.c5 bxc5 20.dxc5 Rxc5 21.Bh7+ Kxh7 22.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 23.Rd1 Rec8
24.h3 Ne5 25.Qe2 Ng6 26.Bxf6 gxf6 27.Rxc1 Rxc1+ 28.Kh2 Rc7 29.Qb2
Kg7 30.a4 Ne7 31.a5 Nd5 32.a6 Kh7 33.Qd4 f5 34.f4 Rd7 35.Kg3
Kg6 36.Qh8 Nf6 37.Qb8 h5 38.Kh4 Kh6 39.Qb2 Kg6 40.Qc3 Ne4 41.Qc8
Nf6 *

[d]2Q5/p2r1p2/P3pnk1/5p1p/5P1K/7P/6P1/8 w - - 8 42

Live: http://moscow2012.fide.com/en/

This position is a near zugzwang for black and Anand has to be extremely careful. Very subtle.
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
[Blog: http://tinyurl.com/predateur ] [Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/fbpredateur ] [MacEngines: http://tinyurl.com/macengines ]
gerold
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Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by gerold »

JuLieN wrote:[Event "World Chess Championship"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2012.05.23"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Gelfand, Boris"]
[Black "Anand, Viswanathan"]
[ECO "E54"]
[Result "*"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 c5 7.O-O dxc4
8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 b6 10.Bg5 Bb7 11.Qe2 Nbd7 12.Rac1 Rc8 13.Bd3
Bxc3 14.bxc3 Qc7 15.c4 Bxf3 16.Qxf3 Rfe8 17.Rfd1 h6 18.Bh4 Qd6
19.c5 bxc5 20.dxc5 Rxc5 21.Bh7+ Kxh7 22.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 23.Rd1 Rec8
24.h3 Ne5 25.Qe2 Ng6 26.Bxf6 gxf6 27.Rxc1 Rxc1+ 28.Kh2 Rc7 29.Qb2
Kg7 30.a4 Ne7 31.a5 Nd5 32.a6 Kh7 33.Qd4 f5 34.f4 Rd7 35.Kg3
Kg6 36.Qh8 Nf6 37.Qb8 h5 38.Kh4 Kh6 39.Qb2 Kg6 40.Qc3 Ne4 41.Qc8
Nf6 *

[d]2Q5/p2r1p2/P3pnk1/5p1p/5P1K/7P/6P1/8 w - - 8 42

Live: http://moscow2012.fide.com/en/

This position is a near zugzwang for black and Anand has to be extremely careful. Very subtle.
Thanks for the updates Julien. I keep getting cut off from the moscow site.
Best,
Gerold.
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JuLieN
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Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by JuLieN »

gerold wrote: Thanks for the updates Julien. I keep getting cut off from the moscow site.
Best,
Gerold.
My pleasure! :) Yes, I have problems with the stream too. They might have some problems today.

[Event "World Chess Championship"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2012.05.23"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Gelfand, Boris"]
[Black "Anand, Viswanathan"]
[ECO "E54"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 c5 7.O-O dxc4
8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 b6 10.Bg5 Bb7 11.Qe2 Nbd7 12.Rac1 Rc8 13.Bd3
Bxc3 14.bxc3 Qc7 15.c4 Bxf3 16.Qxf3 Rfe8 17.Rfd1 h6 18.Bh4 Qd6
19.c5 bxc5 20.dxc5 Rxc5 21.Bh7+ Kxh7 22.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 23.Rd1 Rec8
24.h3 Ne5 25.Qe2 Ng6 26.Bxf6 gxf6 27.Rxc1 Rxc1+ 28.Kh2 Rc7 29.Qb2
Kg7 30.a4 Ne7 31.a5 Nd5 32.a6 Kh7 33.Qd4 f5 34.f4 Rd7 35.Kg3
Kg6 36.Qh8 Nf6 37.Qb8 h5 38.Kh4 Kh6 39.Qb2 Kg6 40.Qc3 Ne4 41.Qc8
Nf6 42.Qb8 Re7 43.g4 hxg4 44.hxg4 fxg4 45.Qe5 Ng8 46.Qg5+ Kh7
47.Qxg4 f6 48.Qg2 Kh8 49.Qe4 Kg7 1/2-1/2

[d]6n1/p3r1k1/P3pp2/8/4QP1K/8/8/8 w - - 4 50

Live: http://moscow2012.fide.com/en/

And it's a draw. An interesting one. Sorry for the annoyances in this thread.

@Anton:
Anton, what is wrong with you and why are you trying to ruin this thread? Please take a look at the forums' descriptions:
Computer Chess Club: General Topics
Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.
Chess Thinkers Forum
A place for chess players to speak about what interests them: chess or otherwise.
So a chess-only thread belongs to CTF, not to the chess-playing software forum. What's the purpose of your attempts to ruin this thread?
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
[Blog: http://tinyurl.com/predateur ] [Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/fbpredateur ] [MacEngines: http://tinyurl.com/macengines ]
Terry McCracken
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Location: Canada

Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by Terry McCracken »

JuLieN wrote:
gerold wrote: Thanks for the updates Julien. I keep getting cut off from the moscow site.
Best,
Gerold.
My pleasure! :) Yes, I have problems with the stream too. They might have some problems today.

[Event "World Chess Championship"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2012.05.23"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Gelfand, Boris"]
[Black "Anand, Viswanathan"]
[ECO "E54"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 c5 7.O-O dxc4
8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 b6 10.Bg5 Bb7 11.Qe2 Nbd7 12.Rac1 Rc8 13.Bd3
Bxc3 14.bxc3 Qc7 15.c4 Bxf3 16.Qxf3 Rfe8 17.Rfd1 h6 18.Bh4 Qd6
19.c5 bxc5 20.dxc5 Rxc5 21.Bh7+ Kxh7 22.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 23.Rd1 Rec8
24.h3 Ne5 25.Qe2 Ng6 26.Bxf6 gxf6 27.Rxc1 Rxc1+ 28.Kh2 Rc7 29.Qb2
Kg7 30.a4 Ne7 31.a5 Nd5 32.a6 Kh7 33.Qd4 f5 34.f4 Rd7 35.Kg3
Kg6 36.Qh8 Nf6 37.Qb8 h5 38.Kh4 Kh6 39.Qb2 Kg6 40.Qc3 Ne4 41.Qc8
Nf6 42.Qb8 Re7 43.g4 hxg4 44.hxg4 fxg4 45.Qe5 Ng8 46.Qg5+ Kh7
47.Qxg4 f6 48.Qg2 Kh8 49.Qe4 Kg7 1/2-1/2

[d]6n1/p3r1k1/P3pp2/8/4QP1K/8/8/8 w - - 4 50

Live: http://moscow2012.fide.com/en/

And it's a draw. An interesting one. Sorry for the annoyances in this thread.

@Anton:
Anton, what is wrong with you and why are you trying to ruin this thread? Please take a look at the forums' descriptions:
Computer Chess Club: General Topics
Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.
Chess Thinkers Forum
A place for chess players to speak about what interests them: chess or otherwise.
So a chess-only thread belongs to CTF, not to the chess-playing software forum. What's the purpose of your attempts to ruin this thread?
CTF has never been used or meant to be used as "Chess Only" forum.

CCC has always been the place to discuss WCC. After 15 years, changing it is absurd in the extreme.
Terry McCracken
tomgdrums
Posts: 736
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Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by tomgdrums »

Terry McCracken wrote:
JuLieN wrote:
gerold wrote: Thanks for the updates Julien. I keep getting cut off from the moscow site.
Best,
Gerold.
My pleasure! :) Yes, I have problems with the stream too. They might have some problems today.

[Event "World Chess Championship"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2012.05.23"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Gelfand, Boris"]
[Black "Anand, Viswanathan"]
[ECO "E54"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 c5 7.O-O dxc4
8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 b6 10.Bg5 Bb7 11.Qe2 Nbd7 12.Rac1 Rc8 13.Bd3
Bxc3 14.bxc3 Qc7 15.c4 Bxf3 16.Qxf3 Rfe8 17.Rfd1 h6 18.Bh4 Qd6
19.c5 bxc5 20.dxc5 Rxc5 21.Bh7+ Kxh7 22.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 23.Rd1 Rec8
24.h3 Ne5 25.Qe2 Ng6 26.Bxf6 gxf6 27.Rxc1 Rxc1+ 28.Kh2 Rc7 29.Qb2
Kg7 30.a4 Ne7 31.a5 Nd5 32.a6 Kh7 33.Qd4 f5 34.f4 Rd7 35.Kg3
Kg6 36.Qh8 Nf6 37.Qb8 h5 38.Kh4 Kh6 39.Qb2 Kg6 40.Qc3 Ne4 41.Qc8
Nf6 42.Qb8 Re7 43.g4 hxg4 44.hxg4 fxg4 45.Qe5 Ng8 46.Qg5+ Kh7
47.Qxg4 f6 48.Qg2 Kh8 49.Qe4 Kg7 1/2-1/2

[d]6n1/p3r1k1/P3pp2/8/4QP1K/8/8/8 w - - 4 50

Live: http://moscow2012.fide.com/en/

And it's a draw. An interesting one. Sorry for the annoyances in this thread.

@Anton:
Anton, what is wrong with you and why are you trying to ruin this thread? Please take a look at the forums' descriptions:
Computer Chess Club: General Topics
Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.
Chess Thinkers Forum
A place for chess players to speak about what interests them: chess or otherwise.
So a chess-only thread belongs to CTF, not to the chess-playing software forum. What's the purpose of your attempts to ruin this thread?
CTF has never been used or meant to be used as "Chess Only" forum.

CCC has always been the place to discuss WCC. After 15 years, changing it is absurd in the extreme.

I think these updates on the match and any accompanying analysis have been great. I don't understand why a few people are getting upset about it.

Thanks for the updates Julien!
gerold
Posts: 10121
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:57 am
Location: van buren,missouri

Re: Anand vs. Gelfand WCC 2012 started

Post by gerold »

JuLieN wrote:[Event "World Chess Championship"]
[Site "Moscow"]
[Date "2012.05.23"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Gelfand, Boris"]
[Black "Anand, Viswanathan"]
[ECO "E54"]
[Result "*"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e3 O-O 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 c5 7.O-O dxc4
8.Bxc4 cxd4 9.exd4 b6 10.Bg5 Bb7 11.Qe2 Nbd7 12.Rac1 Rc8 13.Bd3
Bxc3 14.bxc3 Qc7 15.c4 Bxf3 16.Qxf3 Rfe8 17.Rfd1 h6 18.Bh4 Qd6
19.c5 bxc5 20.dxc5 Rxc5 21.Bh7+ Kxh7 22.Rxd6 Rxc1+ 23.Rd1 Rec8
24.h3 Ne5 25.Qe2 Ng6 26.Bxf6 gxf6 27.Rxc1 Rxc1+ 28.Kh2 Rc7 29.Qb2
Kg7 30.a4 Ne7 31.a5 Nd5 32.a6 Kh7 33.Qd4 f5 34.f4 Rd7 35.Kg3
Kg6 36.Qh8 Nf6 37.Qb8 h5 38.Kh4 Kh6 39.Qb2 Kg6 40.Qc3 Ne4 41.Qc8
Nf6 *

[d]2Q5/p2r1p2/P3pnk1/5p1p/5P1K/7P/6P1/8 w - - 8 42

Live: http://moscow2012.fide.com/en/

This position is a near zugzwang for black and Anand has to be extremely careful. Very subtle.
Exciting ending. Anand played it very well. Even if it was a draw, good game.

Best,
Gerold.