CCC Practice Game

[BubbaTough]

Let's see. When looking at this position before this is what I said:

15. Qh5 Be4 16. Bd3 Bxd3 17. cxd3 is a little blah for black but I don't see much better. The isolated pawn is not really much of a weakness given black's structure.

It still looks as good as anything else to me. I guess maybe 17...Rac8 after that. But let's look at a couple other things.

15...a5 16. Bd3 g6 17. Qg4 and I am not sure what to do for black here. 17...a4 is met with 18 b4, but I don't see much better.

15...Rb8 16 b4 does not look that pleasant.

15...e5 16. Rfd1 d5?! 17. Bc4 is awkward for black because 17...Kh8 fails to 18. Bd3
15...d5 16. Bc5 Rf7 17. b4 e5 18. Rfd1 and the pawn center looks more like a target for attack limiting the scope of black's bishops than a potent force. If we had some knights things might be different.

My vote is 15...Be4.

I encourage those that are doing a little analysis to share that. Those going off other people's analysis point to that, and those going off of general principles only to...try looking a couple moves ahead and posting your lines. It is good practice. It doesn't have to be much, you will notice most of my lines are only 1-3 moves ahead, but if you just go off the best looking concept without looking at a few concrete lines it is easy to get into positions where there are not many good plans (like this one?).

For example...those voting for ...a5. Do you expect something different from my line, or do you expect it but like it best anyway? Where are you developing your rook on a8, is it by opening the a file after ...a4 b4 axb or something else, like to ...Rc8? Where is your queen going? These kinds of questions are best answered with concrete lines...and by sharing them it lets other people either poke holes in your analysis or agree and be convinced.

-Sam

I don't like any pieces in front of the two center pawns.
Two center pawns can start the big winning push in
a couple more moves.

Well, as Chigorin would say: phooey on your general principles...show me your lines .

-Sam

[gerold]

Let's see. When looking at this position before this is what I said:

15. Qh5 Be4 16. Bd3 Bxd3 17. cxd3 is a little blah for black but I don't see much better. The isolated pawn is not really much of a weakness given black's structure.

It still looks as good as anything else to me. I guess maybe 17...Rac8 after that. But let's look at a couple other things.

15...a5 16. Bd3 g6 17. Qg4 and I am not sure what to do for black here. 17...a4 is met with 18 b4, but I don't see much better.

15...Rb8 16 b4 does not look that pleasant.

15...e5 16. Rfd1 d5?! 17. Bc4 is awkward for black because 17...Kh8 fails to 18. Bd3
15...d5 16. Bc5 Rf7 17. b4 e5 18. Rfd1 and the pawn center looks more like a target for attack limiting the scope of black's bishops than a potent force. If we had some knights things might be different.

My vote is 15...Be4.

I encourage those that are doing a little analysis to share that. Those going off other people's analysis point to that, and those going off of general principles only to...try looking a couple moves ahead and posting your lines. It is good practice. It doesn't have to be much, you will notice most of my lines are only 1-3 moves ahead, but if you just go off the best looking concept without looking at a few concrete lines it is easy to get into positions where there are not many good plans (like this one?).

For example...those voting for ...a5. Do you expect something different from my line, or do you expect it but like it best anyway? Where are you developing your rook on a8, is it by opening the a file after ...a4 b4 axb or something else, like to ...Rc8? Where is your queen going? These kinds of questions are best answered with concrete lines...and by sharing them it lets other people either poke holes in your analysis or agree and be convinced.

-Sam

I don't like any pieces in front of the two center pawns.
Two center pawns can start the big winning push in
a couple more moves.

Well, as Chigorin would say: phooey on your general principles...show me your lines .

-Sam

I look at the position on the board. Maybe you use a computer.
That's ok..
I prefer to use my own thinking.

[BubbaTough]

I look at the position on the board. Maybe you use a computer.
That's ok..
I prefer to use my own thinking.

My lines are self-generated as well. I write down my lines in a little notebook as I shuffle pieces around. When I sit down to type it in here I might use a computer program (LearningLemming of course) to make sure I am not dropping anything, but did not do that the last couple times.

Surely when you look at a chess position you are not looking 1 ply ahead. I am recommending you share your thoughts....if anything it seems more important when not using a computer so that someone can point out flaws.

When I looked at ways to get the center mobile I did not like the looks of it (you can see my analysis of it...it is not deep just a few moves). If you see some better way to do it it would be interesting to see.

-Sam

[playjunior]

I agree with Sam that 15...Be4 is probably objectively the strongest.
Several thoughts about the position.
White is doing weakinsh moves, like Rb1 and Qh5 seem kind of awkward. Nevertheless, we cannot take any advantage of it, because white has not any weaknesses, and basically our biggest asset-the "mobile" central pawns, cannot move at the moment because wherever we put them they will block one of our bishops.

If we wanted to play ...a5, 14...Bf6 was unnecessary. It is not clear that the bishop is better on f6, and now the white queen attacks a5, so if we push a5, we still kind of need to take care of that pawn.

Overall, it's better to be realistic and head for a draw. We do not have any active plan, we're a pawn down, and our pawn structure is worse.

And this is, gentlemen, what we get for playing a e6 Sicilian without the b-pawn

[michiguel]

I agree with Sam that 15...Be4 is probably objectively the strongest.
Several thoughts about the position.
White is doing weakinsh moves, like Rb1 and Qh5 seem kind of awkward. Nevertheless, we cannot take any advantage of it, because white has not any weaknesses, and basically our biggest asset-the "mobile" central pawns, cannot move at the moment because wherever we put them they will block one of our bishops.

If we wanted to play ...a5, 14...Bf6 was unnecessary. It is not clear that the bishop is better on f6, and now the white queen attacks a5, so if we push a5, we still kind of need to take care of that pawn.

Overall, it's better to be realistic and head for a draw. We do not have any active plan, we're a pawn down, and our pawn structure is worse.

And this is, gentlemen, what we get for playing a e6 Sicilian without the b-pawn

Be4 is a really bad idea. After Bd3 Bxd3/ cxd3 Rc8 Qe2 white will play Rfc1 and it will be impossible to avoid simplifying even more through the c column. We will end up with an endgame in which everything is equal except there is a b+a pawn against a. That is a technically won endgame for white. Simplifying is a wrong strategy to play for a draw.

I would prefer Qc7 (to avoid Bc5), but since it looks like we may converge between Be4 and a5,
my vote is = a5

Miguel

[Matthias Gemuh]

Just more explanation:
The idea behind Be4 is not to simplify.
It is to stop white's bishop from taking control of the b1-h7 diagonal and disrupting black's king safety, aided by Qh5.

Matthias.

[BubbaTough]

Be4 is a really bad idea. After Bd3 Bxd3/ cxd3 Rc8 Qe2 white will play Rfc1 and it will be impossible to avoid simplifying even more through the c column. We will end up with an endgame in which everything is equal except there is a b+a pawn against a. That is a technically won endgame for white. Simplifying is a wrong strategy to play for a draw.

I would prefer Qc7 (to avoid Bc5), but since it looks like we may converge between Be4 and a5,
my vote is = a5

Miguel

Reasonble points. After 15...Qc7 16. Bd3 g6 17. Qg4 then what? 17...a5? 17...Rab8 18. b4 does not look appealing. After 17...a5 18. h4 and white is starting to attack. ick.

After 15...Be4 16. Bd3 Bxd3 17. cxd3 Rc8 18. Qe2 is a nice move though. 18...Qa5 is met with 19. b4. 18...a6 does not seem promising 19. Rfc1 Qa5 maybe? 20. b4 RxR 21. BxR 22. Qa4 looks like decent queenside pressure for black, but simply 20. b3 and its looking bad. Blah. Things are looking bad for my move.

Here is another idea (suggested by someone else I think but I never looked at it before). Maybe 14...g6 (if we are not going to play 14...Be4 why wait for the bishop to go to d3 before doing this) 15. Qg4 Qa5. If 16. b4 the pawn might become a bit of a target.

OK, Miguel has convinced me, 15...Be4 is bad. I switch my vote to 14...g6.

-Sam

[Steve B]

Be4 is a really bad idea. After Bd3 Bxd3/ cxd3 Rc8 Qe2 white will play Rfc1 and it will be impossible to avoid simplifying even more through the c column. We will end up with an endgame in which everything is equal except there is a b+a pawn against a. That is a technically won endgame for white. Simplifying is a wrong strategy to play for a draw.

I would prefer Qc7 (to avoid Bc5), but since it looks like we may converge between Be4 and a5,
my vote is = a5

Miguel

Reasonble points. After 15...Qc7 16. Bd3 g6 17. Qg4 then what? 17...a5? 17...Rab8 18. b4 does not look appealing. After 17...a5 18. h4 and white is starting to attack. ick.

After 15...Be4 16. Bd3 Bxd3 17. cxd3 Rc8 18. Qe2 is a nice move though. 18...Qa5 is met with 19. b4. 18...a6 does not seem promising 19. Rfc1 Qa5 maybe? 20. b4 RxR 21. BxR 22. Qa4 looks like decent queenside pressure for black, but simply 20. b3 and its looking bad. Blah. Things are looking bad for my move.

Here is another idea (suggested by someone else I think but I never looked at it before). Maybe 14...g6 (if we are not going to play 14...Be4 why wait for the bishop to go to d3 before doing this) 15. Qg4 Qa5. If 16. b4 the pawn might become a bit of a target.

OK, Miguel has convinced me, 15...Be4 is bad. I switch my vote to 14...g6.

-Sam

Tano changed the thread title to move 16 for some reason
it is still move 15
the vote is tied at 4-4 unless Sam is changing his move from 15..Be4 to 15..a5

Deadlocked Regards
Steve

[BubbaTough]

Tano changed the thread title to move 16 for some reason
it is still move 15
the vote is tied at 4-4 unless Sam is changing his move from 15..Be4 to 15..a5

Deadlocked Regards
Steve

I will stubbornly stay with 15...g6 for now, so the vote is 4-4-1 .

-Sam

[Graham Banks]

Tano changed the thread title to move 16 for some reason
it is still move 15
the vote is tied at 4-4 unless Sam is changing his move from 15..Be4 to 15..a5

Deadlocked Regards
Steve

I will stubbornly stay with 15...g6 for now, so the vote is 4-4-1 .

-Sam

I like Sam's idea behind g6 also. I vote for 15....g6.